My question to every Muslim

Your question was why doesn't a religion of over 1 billion people share uniformity in belief. My counterpoint was no religion of over 1 billion people will share uniformity of belief since religion is an inherently subjective institution which inevitably allows for different beliefs to arise.

and yet say, on the occasion when a Christian kills an abortion doctor once or twice in a decade, every Christian denomination universally condemns it. nobody's saying a billion people must agree on theology, but it's not that hard to agree on morality.

Mateo-660030 -

You mean like in this story where a church full of Catholics applauded a "joke" about bombing abortion clinics?

http://carloz.newsvine.com/_news/2011/02/24/6125041-jacksonville-florida-mayoral-candidate-jokes-about-bombing-abortion-clinics

When an abortion doctor is killed it's not nearly universally condemned. Hell, we've got legislatures in one state pushing through bills right now that specifically create a legal loophole for killing abortion doctors.

Also saying moderate Muslims don't condemn violence is nonsense. Every major Muslim outlet in America condemns violence and does so quite vocally and are ignored by those who try to push the meme that moderate Muslims turn a blind eye to extremism.

Every major Muslim outlet in America condemns violence and does so quite vocally and are ignored by those who try to push the meme that moderate Muslims turn a blind eye to extremism.

That is absolute nonsense. I have read several honest condemnations of terror and violent jihad by minor Muslim figures, but the major players always toe the Qur'anic line by including the "exception".

Or more common is the 'terror is bad, but what about...'

Organizations like CAIR are more concerned with whipping up Muslim anger and trying to promote the lie that Muslims are under attack and victims of Islamaphobia. A lie that facts do not support.

And even if this was happening, are the Muslims in America all the Muslims in the world, what about the rest of the world?!

Are American Christians responsible for the actions of Christians in Uganda or Nigeria? No, it's always been quite clear that religious extremism is largely a product of culture - and as I previously stated the problem of following a subjective religious belief structure.

Why do they go crazy for Muhammad's cartoons, and not for hijacking their religion, as they claim?!

Why does the Catholic church go crazy over women priests or someone performing an abortion to save the life of the mother but turn a blind eye to pedophile priests? Religious groups love to focus on things I don't consider important. American Muslim groups have come out against violence, that's really all I can ask of them, to live by and support our secular laws.

The comparisons are entirely valid to the point I've been making throughout, which is that the problem you are trying to paint as a Muslim problem is in fact a religious problem coupled with a guilt by association fallacy.

Faith based religions based on antiquated texts breed the schisms which cause the problems you seem to want to lump entirely on the Islamic community as if it's a uniquely Muslim problem.

I agree with Andrew, for the most part.

Goes, you asked a very broad question which invites very broad answers.

Maybe you should consider rephrasing your question.

by the way it is the only one which is causing real damage today.

Thats not even remotely true.

Peace out.

Comparing christianity to islam does nothing to answer questions about islamic violence.

Your question was why doesn't a religion of over 1 billion people share uniformity in belief.

No he didn't. His question revolves around the problem of so called "moderate" muslims who say that their religion has been corrupted by a small minority of extremists, yet do nothing to eradicate those extremists from being influential within islam.

My question is, you are 1.6 billion, those clerics, and extremists are living among you,and tied to you somehow, how is it possible for you, with all the numbers you have, and all the moderate clerics you have, as well as the money , and media that you possess, are not able to convey the right correct message to those people, and lead them back, to where they belong

The question being asked is if radicals have corrupted the message of islam, why are the moderates doing nothing to stop it.

It's pretty clear, but in your haste to lump all religions together as evil constructs designed to control the the feeble minds of the masses, you overlook the fundamental differences between the two religions. Aside from being labeled "religions" there are no similarities between islam and christianity. You fail to miss this difference because you lack any knowledge about islam. If you do know anything about islam and are still willing to make the comparison, then you are just being dishonest with yourself.

Couldn't have said it better myself teufelhund!

So let me get this straight, you guys believe Muslims haven't spoken out against terrorism? Shame on you for believe such fallacies, try telling that to someone like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P3zcjriPnM&feature=related

If you want someone to blame, blame the media for only air nonsense.

So let me get this straight, you guys believe Muslims haven't spoken out against terrorism?

So what...speaking out against terrorism means nothing. First, it's a western word and condemning it only means something to a western ear.

How about a muslim condemning jihad as sanctioned within the quran and sunnah? How about being honest about the contents of the quran and sunnah? How about speaking out against islamic doctrine inspired slavery, misogyny, violence and the subjugation of all non-believers? How about giving up calls for all man-made governments and systems to be replaced with allah inspired shariah? On top of all that, aside from actually speaking about it, how about looking at their own religion with just a hint of honesty and working collectively to actually change the religion to accept and live in harmony with all things non-islamic?

Oh, I know why...they don't work to do that stuff beccause then it wouldn't be islam anymore, would it?

This media isn't nonsense.

http://www.thethirdjihad.com/

Radical Islam's Vision For America

Elaine, This is one of a few Muslims who I trust. He speaks out directly, he is a secularized Muslin who believes strongly about separation of Mosque and State. One of the few who seems to want change. Thank you.

This is one of a few Muslims who I trust.

I agree Walt.

You “moderate” Muslims

The answer to your question, lies in the first few words of your article. Moderate Islamic people, are by nature reserved in judgement. As opposed to "hard liners" who have "zero flexibility." That is the "crux" of the problem. How does anyone get through to the "closed mind?" The fundamentalist Islamic mind is totally closed, no compromise, no prisoners. Death as a martyr to the cause of Islam, is desirable to any lesser life.

The words "Moderate" and "Radical" as they apply to islam are simply western inventions. In islam, the words "moderate" and "radical" are not distinctions given to muslims. Islam only recognizes muslims as the "best of peoples". Muslims only set themselves apart from each other through the use of the word "hypocrite". As long as a muslim is in compliance with sharia, then they are still a muslim, nothing more and nothing less, as prescribed by sharia.

If you read the quran and the sunna, you would understand what that all means...

That's very interesting information teufelhund, thank you.

As long as a muslim is in compliance with sharia, then they are still a muslim, nothing more and nothing less, as prescribed by sharia.

This makes sense to me and I think it's a mistake in this country to try to distinguish Muslims by calling them "moderates" or "radical". Because of sharia which is extreme and brutal, and because sharia is the law of Islam, I honestly believe that Muslims accept "jihad" and killing of non-Muslims and even fellow Muslims because it is for Islam. This is why most are silent and accepting of honor killings, beheadings and every other atrocity that non Muslims find abhorant and unacceptable. Muslims accept it because it is done in the name of Allah.

The western way of thinking is that a Muslim who doesn't kill and isn't violent toward others is "moderate". But the truth is, those same Muslims who don't kill, accept their brethren who do and have no problems or issues with it because it is for Islam.

The western way of thinking is that a Muslim who doesn't kill and isn't violent toward others is "moderate". But the truth is, those same Muslims who don't kill, accept their brethren who do and have no problems or issues with it because it is for Islam.

Elaine...if you were here, I would kiss you...

Right...You know the whole multiculturalism/one-world-one-love/hold hands sing-song movement likes to think that everybody on the planet is just like us, and we should treat them as such. From the western perspective, that all makes sense. However, if they really took their own advice and tried a little "understanding" and do some real, honest research about what islam is all about, they would understand that when a muslim says "jihad does not mean holy war", that they are absolutly correct. Jihad does not mean holy war, westerners made that crap up to cut down on 'xplanin crap...and it means a lot more than just violence.

check out Goes page...he's got a lot of good articles about that stuff...

check out Goes page...he's got a lot of good articles about that stuff...

He sure does, and he and I are Vine friends. I sent you a friend request and hope you'll accept. I like people who cut through the crap and speak the truth.

Although I am not as word worthy as the rest of my friends, I do my best to help spread the words that needs to be spread. That was an excellent link Elaine! I saved it to my favorites. And I give you this one for yours!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

Here is another one that is very important! It is about our president who is a closet Muslim coming out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY&NR=1

I hope my contribution is worthy!

Thanks for those links Terry! Saved to my favorites.

I would love to hear a debate between 'moderate' Muslims and 'extremist' Muslims. I think it would be a real eye opener.

Me too, that would be very interesting. From my understanding of Islam, the reason the beliefs and attitudes of the extremists don't concern the moderates is because lying for Islam is ok. Jihad is ok because it's against the infidels and if Muslims happen to die in that struggle, that's ok too because it's all for Islam.

Everything that you're saying about Muslims could be said about Christians.

Everything that you're saying about Muslims could be said about Christians.

That is nonsense. Maybe you should do a little research.

But even so, why should that matter. Is your position that since more than one religion is violent and intolerant, that Muslim violence should get a free pass because they are somehow special or immune to criticism?

Is your position that since more than one religion is violent and intolerant, that Muslim violence should get a free pass because they are somehow special or immune to criticism?

No, is your intention to twist everything around so it fits your unjustifiable intolerance of Muslims? If you want to hate Muslims, go ahead, just don't try to hide behind some silly arguments to try to defend it. You don't have to have a logical reason.

My position, if you're really interested, is that crazy people do crazy things and often have a political or religious zealous perspective that they give as their "justification". I don't think that every time this happens - the particular religion or political view in question needs to "condemn" it. They condemn crazy, immoral acts once and again for major events and then that is it. But if they defend it too enthusiastically, it is giving too much credit to the crazies.

No, is your intention to twist everything around so it fits your unjustifiable intolerance of Muslims?

Is it your intention to define anyone who criticizes a violent intolerant religion as "hating Muslims"? Hundreds of millions of Muslims are peaceful, wonderful human beings. I have NEVER said that I blame all Muslims for the violence of VIOLENT Muslims. You want to call them "crazies", fine. But those crazies are motivated and guided by the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad. Thankfully, most Muslims choose to ignore those parts of their religion, or sadly, deny that they exist. But this does not change reality. You can hide from this problem, or you can face the problem honestly and be a part of a peaceful solution.

Pretending all critics of Islam are Islamaphobic haters and bigots is a convenient way to avoid a painful reality. Islam has issues. Serious ones.

But those crazies are motivated and guided by the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad. Thankfully, most Muslims choose to ignore those parts of their religion, or sadly, deny that they exist. But this does not change reality. You can hide from this problem, or you can face the problem honestly and be a part of a peaceful solution.

The vast majority of world religions originated in archaic societies and contain abominable teachings mixed with some good philosophy that are selectively followed by individuals based on what is culturally acceptable. Any absolutist faith based religion including Islam is deeply flawed, but they should all be judged by the same standards. I'm a quite vocal critic of Islam the religion, but I'm equally critical of Christianity the religion, or any other religion for that matter. The Muslim religion itself is no worse than Christianity, it just happens to be practiced primarily in a region that is deeply impoverished, dominated by authoritarian regimes, and largely uneducated, which are the real problems. Any argument against Islam can easily be restated to address Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion. An argument against the real problems, militism among poor uneducated people in authoritarian overpopulated nations are much more inconvenient because dealing with those problems is a lot harder than tossing out blanket condemnations of Muslims.

it just happens to be practiced primarily in a region that is deeply impoverished, dominated by authoritarian regimes, and largely uneducated, which are the real problems.

"it just happens" that every Muslim country is overrun with these problems? don't you think there's any margin to concede the most likely explanation, that Islam is actually the cause of these problems?

Islam is a ridiculous fairy tale, just like every other religion. That said all religions should be treated equally in our secular society. When a Muslim violates the law they should be punished. I'm glad Zachary Chesser just got 25 years for his crimes. That doesn't mean I feel the need to paint all Muslims in America with the same broad brush anymore than I feel the need to put the nice Unitarians up the street in the same box as the Westboro Baptists.

You say you criticize all religions, yet defend Islam with criticism of other religions, then when you are called on it, you dismiss Islam as a "fairy tale", further down playing the seriousness of the problems with Islam.

Then you assign critics of Islam the false label of bigot:

That doesn't mean I feel the need to paint all Muslims in America with the same broad brush

I don't believe anyone here was criticizing all Muslims. Just Islam.

Interesting...

Andrew-1162039

The vast majority of world religions originated in archaic societies and contain abominable teachings mixed with some good philosophy that are selectively followed by individuals based on what is culturally acceptable. Any absolutist faith based religion including Islam is deeply flawed, but they should all be judged by the same standards.

I agree, they should all be judged equally. But in today's times the Islamic extremists are the ones blowing up buildings, beheading innocent people and declaring war on everybody else who doesn't believe in what they do.

I'm a quite vocal critic of Islam the religion, but I'm equally critical of Christianity the religion, or any other religion for that matter.

Understandable, that is your choice, and that view is shared with several billion people on this planet.

The Muslim religion itself is no worse than Christianity,

On this aspect I will have to disagree. The Christian doctrine does not call out for the murder of anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity. That was a misconception that was believed during the crusades and the Spanish inquisition. Since then that misconception has been rectified.

it just happens to be practiced primarily in a region that is deeply impoverished, dominated by authoritarian regimes, and largely uneducated, which are the real problems.

This I also agree on, the problem is education. Unfortunately most of the poor people only get the rhetoric, kill everybody on the planet who does not believe in Islam until Islam rules the world.

Any argument against Islam can easily be restated to address Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion.

Not in today's times.

An argument against the real problems, militism among poor uneducated people in authoritarian overpopulated nations are much more inconvenient because dealing with those problems is a lot harder than tossing out blanket condemnations of Muslims.

You hit the nail on the head! All religions have their bad elements. But unfortunately Islam is the leader in militant actions and the subversion of other nations laws in today's times!

The fact is, the correct straight path is defined by an individual, not a group of people.

This is your assertion, not a fact. Islam literally means submission, and a believer has no authority to choose, but only to submit. Submit to allah and the quran. That is islam. Believers do not have the choice of what they want to follow and what they don't. If a believer does not follow the programming, then they are not a believer, they are a kafir/apostate/hypocrite, depending on how bad they are.

If you think that the moderate muslims are failing, then the Catholic church is doing a piss-poor job as well. Its all relative.

No its not, and here's the difference, using your example of pedophiles. If a priest is a pedophile, that is trully someone straying from their religion, and is not condoned by any authoritative figure or the bible. When a "radical" believer commits violence in the name of islam, he can justify his actions with the quran, and authoritative jurisprudence that is fundamental to islam. Any condemnations that come from some imam or fatwa come either because other muslims were killed in an attack or with the use of the word "innocents" which sounds good to western ears, but has a totally different meaning to islamic ones...

No, but I'm not Muslim either. This doesn't mean I haven't read the Quran, or have close friend who are Muslim who speak Arabic and currently study the Quran in depth.

What is your point here?

You are Catholic, the mission is clear for you, spread the "good news" of the Gospel!

Christ Yashua didn't ask us to judge other religions, he asked us to spread the word of his sacrifice.

Didn't Yashua say..."Love thy neighbor as thyself"? didn't he also say "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"?

Do you believe Christ Yashua when he said these things?

Ak Lushlwa; Do you know Islam is an authoritative totalitarian political system wrapped in religion? There is not separation of mosque and state it is one in the same thing. Did you know the goal of Islam is to Implement Shariah as the world law and eliminate all other man made laws. To convert all non-Muslims (kufr) if not they will be annihilated. Did you know that an estimated 270 Million have been killed in the name of Jihad? That is about 4.5 times as many as Hitler, Stalin and Mao collectively killed. By the way if your not a Muslim then you a Kufr. Have a nice day.

What does this have to do with the fact that Moderate Muslims are being treated harshly for acts done by other extremist groups using that same banner as the true Muslims?

Muslims denounce terrorism just as you and I do, I'm not sure if you're aware of that or not. So why do people keep blaming the entire religion?

What if people kept saying...You know what, all those Catholics are gay and pedophiles...the devil must run the Catholic church. Would you believe the rumors? Would you convert? Would you keep spreading that message? or would you spread what you know inside to be true?

What if people kept saying...You know what, all those Catholics are gay and pedophiles...

Does it repeatedly tell Christians in the Bible to molest children? If it did, wouldn't you be up in arms against the Church? I would be. The difference is, the Qur'an clearly calls for violence against the non believers. REPEATEDLY. If you really do read the Qur'an, you would know this. As a non-believer, shouldn't I have a right to be concerned by this?

As a believer, this is your right, just as it is mine.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" "

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"?

I would also say the Quran has been misinterpreted by men with an agenda. The same for the Holy Bible and other ancient religious text. I say leave them alone and let G-d deal with them, we're all going to be judged by the Father in the end, so leave it to the judge himself.

What does this have to do with the fact that Moderate Muslims are being treated harshly for acts done by other extremist groups using that same banner as the true Muslims?

Language is a funny thing. Harshly? When you say harshly, that creates images that are not true. A more correct word to use would be 'criticism', which is what is happening here. If you think muslims are being treated harshly because they are recieving criticism, then let's just go ahead and burn the bill of rights right now.

Muslims denounce terrorism just as you and I do, I'm not sure if you're aware of that or not.

I'm sure we're all aware. Only some of us are aware of the obsfucation that comes with it...

So why do people keep blaming the entire religion?

Read the quran and the sunnah and you'll know.

What if people kept saying...You know what, all those Catholics are gay and pedophiles...the devil must run the Catholic church. Would you believe the rumors? Would you convert? Would you keep spreading that message? or would you spread what you know inside to be true?

Intellectual honesty coupled with western familiarization of catholicism would allow one to realize that is not true. Making comparisons between the two comes naturally to those who have a lack of fundamental knowledge of islam, so I understand the confusion. Of course the bottom line is that making those comparisons does nothing to answer the seeder's question about what "moderates" are doing to correct the misinterpretation of islam.

We can dance around words all day if that actually accomplished something, but we both know it leads to a dead end.

Intellectual honesty coupled with western familiarization of catholicism would allow one to realize that is not true.

But wait, something like that did happen, and it plagues the Catholic church today. What about the Pope protecting these guilty Priests in the Vatican? What kind of message does that send to the world?

Making comparisons between the two comes naturally to those who have a lack of fundamental knowledge of islam, so I understand the confusion

It seems you are confusing modern Muslims with Islamic extremists, I've been talking about modern Muslims, not Islamic extremists.

But wait, something like that did happen, and it plagues the Catholic church today. What about the Pope protecting these guilty Priests in the Vatican?

What? Every catholic turned gay or pedo? Isn't that the sort of generalization that is treating muslims harshly?

It seems you are confusing modern Muslims with Islamic extremists, I've been talking about modern Muslims, not Islamic extremists

No, I know the difference. I also know that the terms "moderate" and "extremist" are western constructs, not islamic ones. There is no moderate or radical islam, only islam. Muslims aren't the problem...the quran and sunnah are the problem. Your comparison with other religions only serves to obsfucate the question posed by the author, which is if so-called "moderates" ARE correct and the "radicals" that are in the minority have hijacked the religion, why don't they stop the "radicals" and the influence they weild within islam?

Your shiite cleric in post 7.17 condemning arab violence in iraq (in 2005 no less) not withstanding, outside of issuing fatwas and condemnations, what are they doing to stop it?

What? Every catholic turned gay or pedo? Isn't that the sort of generalization that is treating muslims harshly?

Yes, see how easy it is to stereotype a religion?

What you're saying is that "every" Muslim wakes-up in the morning with the intent to kill a non-muslim, do you truly believe that? Poppycock!

Your comparison with other religions only serves to obsfucate the question posed by the author, which is if so-called "moderates" ARE correct and the "radicals" that are in the minority have hijacked the religion, why don't they stop the "radicals" and the influence they weild within islam?

Like I said earlier, the media is more interested in airing major crimes, bombings and such, than they are in airing some "Imam" delivering peace or human right speeches.

But hey...to each his own.

Good day!

Yes, see how easy it is to stereotype a religion?

Sure...you see how catholics aren't getting their panties in a bunch and whining about being treated harshly just because they're getting a little criticism? No, they deal with it and fix the problem. Someone commits violence in the name of islam and we get a speach out in front of a mosque or a press release...but some kafir draws a motoon and there's riots in the streets, people killed and embassies fire-bombed in multiple countries...

What you're saying is that "every" Muslim wakes-up in the morning with the intent to kill a non-muslim, do you truly believe that?

Nobody has said that. This is just an attempt by you to derail, just as making religion comparisons is. Maybe you should work on your comprehension skills.

Like I said earlier, the media is more interested in airing major crimes, bombings and such, than they are in airing some "Imam" delivering peace or human right speeches.

Speeches on peace and human rights? Using western language or islamic language?

Teufelhund all your posts are well state and excellent. Indeed they are, my thanks.

Appreciate it, walt. Thanks to you, goes, and dq for your comments...

teufelhund, total awesomeness! If it means anything, I declare you the winner of that debate!

Goes, Walt, teuf. I am not worthy, I am not worthy, I am not worthy! (Wayne's world).

Your sentence is confusing to me - could you please clarify? Otherwise, I cannot address your points as fully as I would like.

Were they born this way, they were

Nobody is "born that way". No one is born as a religious fundamentalist. But some people are born into that sort of religious persuasion and social structure such that they have no hope of ever actually rising above it and no true choice in ever doing so either, since they've been effectively brainwashed since childhood.

why was it easy for them to turn around?!

I thought your entire point was that they do not turn around, in which I agreed with you - obviously. Here, I'll quote you:

If you are so right, and you understand your religion correctly, and the truth is clear, and it contradicts what they believe, how come you are not able to let them see the truth, and return to the correct straight path?!

Unless of course, you weren't speaking specifically about Muslim fundamentalists but those of other faiths when you said "why was it easy for them to turn around" - to which I submit that it generally isn't easy. It's quite difficult. But people that are born into that sort of belief structure in Western society have the benefit of possibly overcoming it due to exposure to a variety of other faiths, education, and secularism. Not being stoned to death for abandoning your particular brand of insanity is definitely a likely motivating factor too, I would imagine.

However, I will agree with you that radical Islam presents a great threat to the world at large. In my opinion, religious extremism of any kind presents the greatest threat to our continued civilization. This isn't new - it has been this way throughout history. And because of the politically unstable nature of the middle east, the Islamic extremists are currently the most dangerous.

But I disagree that this happens only to them in their early childhood, and because of the brainwashing since early age. We have seen terrorists from all background, and started at different points in their lives, not only childhood.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say it happens only in their early childhood, I was making a counterpoint that people aren't born that way, but some people are born into a situation that predisposes them to extremism. Of course people can become extremist in adulthood - I didn't think that I even implied that they couldn't, but my apologies if it came off that way.

For whatever reason, some people feel drawn to radical beliefs. Perhaps the absolutism of it gives them comfort, perhaps they feel a sense of belonging when they are united against a common enemy - I don't know, and I don't particularly care either. In the end, it doesn't matter what caused people to hold such beliefs, what matters is how we stop them from ushering in a new dark ages for the rest of us.

Once again I have to disagree with you, we have also seen Islamists who turned to extremism while they were living in modern societies

And once again, you likewise misunderstood me. What I said was:

And because of the politically unstable nature of the middle east, the Islamic extremists are currently the most dangerous

Not "the politically unstable nature of the middle east breeds extremism" - although I think that is definitely true in some cases. Allow me to elaborate, as I think the source of misunderstanding came from the fact that I didn't expand upon that statement in the first place:

There are extremists of all faiths. For example, as a biologist living in America, Christian fundamentalists irritate me far more than those of any other faith because I am exposed to them regularly. I find their anti-science beliefs to be a detriment to society and human progress. But here's the difference - I am not in fear that they will acquire a nuclear bomb and blow us all to hell. As such, barring the occasional clinic bombing - they are mostly physically harmless. That is not the case with Islamic extremists.

In the middle east, you have a situation where religious extremism is augmented by political instability. When you have a situation like that, it is very dangerous - it is a veritable recipe for disaster. As such, while it is not the sociopolitical nature of the middle east that gave rise to Islamic extremism in the first place, it certainly has facilitated it and it certainly is what makes them so dangerous to the world at large today. That's what I was attempting to say with "and because of the politically unstable nature of the middle east, the Islamic extremists are currently the most dangerous".

moreover, their extremism is fully justified by their faith.

To be fair though, all forms of extremism are justified by faith. That's why they are extremist in the first place - because they believe their faith demands it of them. With the Qu'ran, indeed, it does advocate the killing of infidels. But then again, the Old Testament likewise advocates the slaughter of nonbelievers by the faithful. All of the Abrahamic faiths are violent at their core, which is one of the reasons that I personally reject them. They are not "religions of peace" - far from it. Although a peaceful message and a peaceful way of living can still be derived from them - as long as you ignore all the troublesome parts.

You can reject religion all you want. The reality is; There are 1.5 billion Muslims who do not reject religion and a growing percentage of them embrace the calls to violence and intolerance in the Qur'an.

While I don't disagree with the fact that many religions have a violent history, most have found ways to move forward and reject the violence. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to find cause if you want to bad enough, but right now Islam seems to be the most active problem religion.

You can reject religion all you want. The reality is; There are 1.5 billion Muslims who do not reject religion and a growing percentage of them embrace the calls to violence and intolerance in the Qur'an.

Did you actually read my posts, or did you simply knee-jerk respond to it because of what you perceived was a generalized attack upon all faiths (presumably faiths that you hold in higher regard than Islam)? Here, I'll quote myself for you, although I certainly shouldn't have to:

the Islamic extremists are currently the most dangerous....it doesn't matter what caused people to hold such beliefs, what matters is how we stop them from ushering in a new dark ages for the rest of us.

So you see, I am in agreement with you - which you would have known had you read the post. I was not stating that Muslim extremists were equally as dangerous or less so compared to other faiths - I was simply pointing out that dogma and zealotry can be found everywhere you look.

And as a side note, I said I reject western religion, specifically. But that's rather irrelevant anyways, because rejecting religion does not mean ignoring the problems that it presents. It does not mean closing your eyes and ears and hoping these idiots go away or mutually exterminate themselves. We have to stop Islamic extremism - it is a tremendous threat to our civilization and our way of life. It is the old ways clashing with the new. If we do nothing, and let the extremism fester and putrefy, there is surely no swifter way to bring about our end.

But the question is how we can actually succeed. A war on terrorism is like a war on drugs. It is neverending, unless the source is eradicated. Until people abandon their dogmatic beliefs en masse, there will always be new extremists to take their place.

My response was aimed at the "reject" religion comment. It may have seemed more harsh than intended, but I was just pointing out, sorry, at your expense ;), that you can't dismiss religion. It is here for the duration and as a society we must learn to deal with it. I apologize if I made it personal to you. You did say "personally reject them" and I respect that and should have been more clear in my intended message. Peace.

No worries :). Perhaps my choice of "rejection" was a poor one in the first place. I did not mean to imply that I dismiss or ignore the importance of religion, but rather I was explaining that one reason (among many) that I do not follow the Abrahamic faiths is because of their intrinsically violent and seemingly hypocritical nature.

It is here for the duration and as a society we must learn to deal with it

Absolutely. It will persist forever in one form or another, but hopefully (as a whole) we will learn to abandon dogmatic and illogical religious beliefs in favor of more reasonable ones. That won't happen in any time soon though - and so we're left with something rather problematic: as modern society advances and becomes more secular, certain pockets of the world population hold on desperately to fundamentalist beliefs that are firmly rooted in their culture. The two clash and cannot be reconciled, and consequently we are viewed as their enemies. How can we deal with that? How can we fight against ideology?

I don't know the answer to that question, and it may not have one, so I am not very optimistic with regards to world affairs in the immediate future.

walt,

I stayed on topic, I asked valid questions, you guys didn't like what I had to say, so how is that troll? Also, I don't even know who Wakeup is, that person sent a friend request long ago not sure what for either.

Ak, Actually you did not ask a question on your first seed, you implied Goes was a hypocrite. Any way I hope yuu have a better evening. Stay warm, it cold in my time zone.

Wow! Thanks! Finally, some muslims come out and denounce terrorism...about time! Well, I guess we can put that whole terrorism thing to bed now...whew! Thought the day would never come...

Oh, by the way...now that they have spoken out againts terrorism, what are they actually doing to stop terrorism? When are the so called "moderates" actually going to stop the so called "radicals" from hijacking the religion and bring them back into the moderate fold? What are they actually doing?

Outside of terrorism, what are they doing to teach that jihad is not obligatory upon all muslims to implement shariah over the whole world until religion is all for allah? Anybody issuing fatwas against jihad? How about a speech against jihad? Anybody?

Great article about shariah, written by some dude named Justin...I was not aware that he was an islamic scholar. Is he a halfass...i mean hafiz? Justin mentions, and other westerners who think shariah is a widely interpretive process have mentioned, that shariah is a widely interpretive process. Let me give you an example of how wide that interpretation is:

There are differences among scholars with regard to the application of some hudud. For example, there are differences relating to the meaning of cutting off a thief's hand, the accurate place of cutting, and the amount or number of stolen stuff that deserves the penalty. This is natural because jurisprudential details differ, but the basic rulings are agreed upon.

http://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/contemporary-issues/interviews-reviews-and-events/450554-hudud-in-the-contemporary-fiqhi-discourse.html

So, what that means is, when a western dude who has no understanding of shariah says that shariah is open to interpretation, what he means (yet has no clue what he means) is that shariah varies on administrative aspects, such as whether to cut the hand off at the hand/wrist junction, or higher up through the wrist bone. Basically the interpetive differences are where to cut the hand off, not whether or not to cut the hand off in the first place...

Oh, and the scholar presented in the article carries a little more weight in the islamic world than Justin...Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, president of the International Union for Muslim Scholars (IUMS)

Not to mention that many statements cited were out and out lies about what is called for or condemned by the Qur'an. The amount of taqiyya in some of those statements was laughable. Of course they would also denounce taqiyya as being untrue as well.

As usual excellent and thought provoking Goes. The questions you ask are valid, however I do tend to agree with one of the commentators when he said that moderate and extremist are appellations given to Muslims by Western society and culture. Personally I don't believe in the concept of 'moderate Muslim', neither do I feel that there is such a thing. The framework of the Qu'ran is pretty clear, you either are a believer or you are an infidel and such not worthy of living. Therefore to have a legitimate answer to your very clear questions will be difficult if not impossible.