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The preserved word of Allah

Thu Nov 4, 2010 9:57 AM EDT
religion, word, allah, preserved
By Goes
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The Qur’an, and all Muslims, are claiming that the Qur’an’s script, is not, and cannot be tempered with, as God himself promised to protect it. He didn’t make the same promise. From their point of view, in protecting the Torah, and the bible.

Qur’an 15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Qur’an 4:82 Do they not consider the Qur’ān (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy

10:15 But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a Reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

10:37 This Qur’ān is not such as can be produced by other than God. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book- wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

85.21-22 Day, this is a Glorious Qur’ān,

(Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved

And so more in the Qur’an, testifying that it is the perfect, complete, and untouchable word of Allah.

In this article, I am going to discuss this claim, and we will see whether this claim is valid, or the best kept book, was tempered with, in many stages, and by many people?

The collection, and writing of the Qur’an, started when Mohamed was still alive. In many of the Islamic books, it was clearly mentioned, that Mohamed ordered the writers, to write whatever verse he receives, to keep those verses safe from being lost or forgotten. The very big question regarding this claim that was mentioned by several Islamic writers; if this was the case? Where are the sources of those writings? Not one of them has been discovered and preserved, as the sources for the Holly book were found and preserved?

They keep all kinds of possessions, which Mohamed had, but not one single source for this Qur’an, Isn’t that very strange?!

Muslims claim that the Qur’an was written on wooden and stone material. Those wooden, and stone material were kept, preserved the Qur’an from loss. If that was the case, where is the Qur’an which was written in Mecca? As we all know, Mohamed fled from Mecca with Abu Bakr, and they had nothing more with them. The Qur’an material which was supposed to be transported from Mecca to Al Madinah, needed 20 rides to carry them as per Mohamed’s Sobeih book ‘New research about the Holy Qur’an’ pages 87 and 88.

This was supposed to be the first collection of the Qur’an, during Mohamed’s era. If this was the case, and the Qur’an was collected during Mohamed’s life, there was no point of having the second collection of the Qur’an done, the way it was.

Abu Bakr Al Seddiq the first Khalifa who came after Mohamed’s death, asked Omar Ibn Al Khattab and Zaid Ibn Thabet to collect the Qur’an from the people who remember it, and they have to make sure that whatever they collect, is remembered by at least two people. So why did this collection had to be made this way, if it was already written? Wouldn't it be more accurate, if the written material was all collected, then examined for accuracy, and then written down in one book?! And the main reason behind making the first collection, also supports that hte Qur'an was not entirely written before, and this reason was, the casualty rate in Yamama war.

Many of the companions of the Prophet of Allah (saw) had their own reading of the Qur'an, but they died and their readings disappeared soon afterwards. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.83).

[Zaid b. Thabit said:] 'The Prophet died and the Qur'an had not been assembled into a single place.' (p. 118, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 9)

Salim had already 'collected the Qur'an into a single volume' -- he was the first to collect the Qur'an, and gave it the name mushaf, a word he had heard in Ethiopia, (p. 121, Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. abi Bakr al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, pt 1, p. 58)

The sheets [suhuf] that Zaid prepared in this manner remained in the keeping of Abu Bakr. On his death, they passed to `Umar who then bequeathed them on his death to his daughter Hafsa. (p. 118-119, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 9. Also Sahih Bukhari vol. VI:509, 510)

Zuhri reports that when slaughter befell the Muslims in the Yemama it was Abu Bakr who feared that many of the qarra' would perish. (p. 120, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 12)

It is said that upward of 700 Companions fell in the Yemama. Sufyan reports that when Salim was slain `Umar hastened to Abu Bakr. (p. 120, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 9)

The first to collect the Qur'an between two covers was Abu Bakr. awwal man jama`a al Qur'an baina lawhain. (p. 122, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 6)

`Ali said, 'God bless Abu Bakr! He was the first to collect the Qur'an between two covers', (p. 122, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 6)

'the greatest reward in respect of the masahif will fall to Abu Bakr for he was the first to collect the text between the two covers.' (p. 122, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 5)

'Abu Bakr collected the Qur'an after the death of the Prophet.' (p. 122, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 6)

Elsewhere we are assured that Zaid first wrote out the Qur'an for Abu Bakr on scraps of leather and on palm-branches. On the death of Abu Bakr, `Umar appointed Zaid to transcribe his materials into the sahifa which remained in `Umar's possession. (p. 123, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 12)

From all of the above, we reach the conclusion, that the Qur’an in its present form was not created during the life of Muhammad, and this destroys all theories claiming that it was completed during the life of Muhammad.

Now let us take a closer look on how the first collection of the Qur’an which took place during Abu Bakr was conducted.

It was supposed to be confirmed by two people before it was written down, as part of the Qur’an according to the following:

Abu Bakr ordered `Umar and Zaid to sit in the gate of the mosque and to include in the mushaf only what was vouched for by the testimony of two men. (p. 125, Ahmad b. `Ali b. Muhammad al `Asqalani, ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 11)

But, is that really what strictly happened, or exceptions were made to this rule?!

In a book called (The compiler, Al gamea), written by Ibn Rashed Al azdy, part 11, page 235. (Zaid Ibn Thabet said “When we wrote the masahef, a verse was lost, that I used to hear from the prophet, and I found it at Khozayma Ibn Thabet Al Ansary. And it was 33:23 Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with God. of them some have completed their vow (to the extreme), and some (still) wait: but they have never changed (their determination) in the least. After that Khazayma was known as the dual witness, the prophet accepted his testimony to be accepted as dual, and it was inserted in Sura 33.

In (Mosnad Al imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal), part one, page 199. (by Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, “Al harith Ibn Khazmah came with two verses from the end of Bara’ah (Al Tawbah 128 and 129. Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful. But if they turn away, Say: "God sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!" to Umar, he asked him, “And who is with you to confirm this?” He said “No body, but I witness that I heard it from the prophet of Allah, and studied it”. Umar replied “And I witness that I heard it from the prophet of Allah”, and added “And if they were three verses, I would have made it a separate Sura “, then ordered the writers saying: “Find a sura from the Qur’an, and insert them in it” so Zayd inserted it at the end of Al tawba.

In the book Proficiency in the science of the Quran (Al Itqan fi oloum al Qur’an) by Al Seyouti, part 1, page 163.Umar came with the verse of stoning, but Zayd refused to add it, because he was alone on it, while he accepted another verse before from a single source! This is a very strange situation, taking in consideration that Umar was very highly respected by Muhammad, and he was the second Khalifa too.

In the book Wallflowers jewels (Al dor al manthour) by Galal Al Din Al Seyouti, part 6, page 558 (the nawawy said “It came to our knowledge that some of the prophet fellows were injured on the day of the war with Musaylama, so parts of the Qur’an were lost”.

In the Proficiency in the science of the Qur’an, part 3, page 66. “Nafea herd from Umar’s son that Umar said “No one says that I studied the whole Qur’an, he doesn’t know its whole, a lot of it is lost, he can say I studied what is available”

In the book Proficiency in the science of the Quran (Al Itqan fi oloum al Qur’an) by Al Seyouti, part 1, page 177. When Abo Bakr became Khalifa, Ali Ibn Abu Taleb stayed home, Abu Bakr was told that Ali did not support him, so he sent to him saying “Did you hate supporting me?!” Ali replied “God knows it is not that”, Abu Bakt asked “Why didn’t you come?!” Ali replied “I saw the book of God being added to, so I said to myself, I will not put my clothes on except for praying, until I collect it.”

Abu Bakr, and Umar collected the Qur’an in one book, but they did not eliminate the problem of the existence of different versions, and readings of the Qur’an, which made it necessary for Othman Ibn Affan to recollect the Qur’an once again, and make sure that the different versions, and readings are destroyed, and only one version is being used in all pars of the Islamic Umma.

In the book Proficiency in the science of the Quran (Al Itqan fi oloum al Qur’an) by Al Seyouti, part 1, page 165,166. Uthman collection happened when numerous readings were occurring, and people even started reading it in their own languages, and they started to say others were reading wrong readings, Uthamn was worried of things getting out of control in this regard. He collected, and organized one version, and chose from all languages Qoraish tribe’s, saying that the Qur’an was revealed in their language.

This collection was also made by Zaid Ibn Thabet, although the most important four Qur’an studiers were as per Muhammad, Bukhary, part 4, and page 199. Muhammad said “Listen to the Qur’an from four Abdullah Ibn Mas’oud, Obay Ibn Ka’b, Ma’az Ibn Gabal, and Salem Mawla Abi Hozayfah”. So why did Othman neglect those four, and once again asked Zaid to collect it?!

If the Qur’an was collected completely, and perfectly by Abu Bakr, and Umar, why was the need for Uthman to ask Zeid, once again to re-collect the Qur’an, and then burned all the other ones? If they were all the same version, and no differences or discrepancies were found, why was the need of burning the other versions?! Needless to say, that in this collection too, they had the freedom to find missing verses, as well as adding, and removing from the Qur’an.

If I was to include all that is related to this issue in this article, I would need to write much more to show what happened during the collection of Uthman, but as it happened in the first time, things also happened during the second time, which is not really necessary to mention them in details, as the details already mentioned in the first collection, and not directly copying from it, supports the conclusion that all sorts of editing happened to the second collection too.

The conclusion is that the claim by Muslims, that Qur’an is the untouched, complete, and preserved word of Allah, is nothing but more of Islam myth and poor Muslims are well rested that they have the full truth from Allah revealed to Muhammad.

It is not only Muhammad, wrote this book, and included what he wanted to build his Islamic empire, but Also Abu Bakr, Umar, Zaid, and Utman are his partners in presenting to the world the Qut’an in its present form.

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  • Public Discussion (69)
WakeUpPeople-1385514

I think people might have a better understanding of the article if you maybe start off with a section explaining who each person you are talking about is...maybe like a little bio on them (Abu Bakr, Umar, Zaid, Salim, Uthman, etc.) Just a suggestion...

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 9:16 PM EDT
Goes

Thank you for the suggestion, but this is giving everyone the chance to conduct his own research, and don't take things as they are given to him.

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Fri Nov 5, 2010 8:26 AM EDT
WakeUpPeople-1385514

well once you realize that Abu Bakr, Umar, Abbas, etc knew the prophet personally and were considered his companions (similar to Jesus's (pbuh) apostles... it kind of changes the meaning of the quotes you are using.

Also, when you say things like...

Mohamed fled from Mecca with Abu Bakr, and they had nothing more with them. The Qur’an material which was supposed to be transported from Mecca to Al Madinah, needed 20 rides to carry them as per Mohamed’s Sobeih book ‘New research about the Holy Qur’an’ pages 87 and 88.

This was supposed to be the first collection of the Qur’an, during Mohamed’s era. If this was the case, and the Qur’an was collected during Mohamed’s life, there was no point of having the second collection of the Qur’an done, the way it was.

you make it sound like once he fled to Medina from Mecca he stopped receiving revelation and the Qur'an was complete at that point. Is that true?

    #1.2 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:42 PM EST
    WakeUpPeople-1385514

    but this is giving everyone the chance to conduct his own research, and don't take things as they are given to him.

    but are you not giving them things to be taken as you are presenting them? You comment suggests that people will find an alternate version of the story that differs from yours if they conduct their own research, no? By saying what you said, it could be interpreted as you admitting that what you are posting here is NOT what Islam teaches, but your own opinion from your limited understanding of the subject.

    So with this comment, are you saying people SHOULDN'T believe you and should do their own research? Or are you saying people shouldn't believe the research they've already done and should believe you instead?

      #1.3 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:46 PM EST
      CaptainObviousSays

      I say remove. by any means, any culture or religion that allows for the stoning of a woman for being raped by her uncle...

      • 9 votes
      #1.4 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:16 PM EDT
      Reply
      walt-567637

      Hum, someone wants a free education and has no comments? Darn. Or is changing the subject called trolling?

      Goes thanks for the information, a good seed.

      There is no such thing as the Our'an. Thers is no and there has never has been, a testus receptus ne varieturof the holy book of the Muslim. There are two kinds of evidence for this claim. One comes from Muslims themselves. Many classical Muslim scholars-Koranic commentators, collectors of Hadith, lexica and Oura'at books for example, have acknowledged not only the many verses reveled to Muhammad have been lost, and hence the Koran that we possess is incomplete, but also that the Koran assembled, whether by Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali or Uthman is capable of being read in different ways--in other words, that variants exist. There are a number of hadiths that recount "the loss, withdrawl of forgetting of this or that verse said to have reveled to the Prophet but not figuring" in the Koran as it now exists. The other comes from extant Koranic manuscripts, inspirations and coins.

      • 8 votes
      Reply#2 - Fri Nov 5, 2010 11:11 PM EDT
      april-1023405

      Agreed - goes is seeding some interesting information.

      • 7 votes
      #2.1 - Sat Nov 6, 2010 12:05 AM EDT
      Reply
      Goes

      Here's a good source for missing, and changed verses.

      http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/V/verse.html

      • 5 votes
      Reply#3 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:59 PM EST
      WakeUpPeople-1385514

      yeah, because answering Islam is an authority on Islam... NOT!!

      Who is (behind) "Answering Islam" ?

      Many people send us emails asking who we are, what are our qualifications to speak on Islam, what is our statement of faith, etc.

      Some say, that they love our site, and would like to recommend it to others, but cannot do so before they know who we are and what exactly we believe.

      If you are one who seeks answers to these questions, we would like to ask you: What would you need these answers for? Why is the (usually acknowledged) quality of our material not enough for you?

      We have no desire that people believe our arguments just because some respectable names of persons, organizations or churches are attached to the site. Often the question comes from Christians who want to be sure, we are evangelical Christians, before they can trust or recommend us.

      We do not want Christians (or anyone else) to believe what we write is correct just because we claim to be evangelical, or because we can tout some academic titles to the names of our authors, but because the arguments are biblical, well documented, and logically sound.

      The Bible praises these critical believers:

      Now, the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11

      The Bereans believed not because it was Paul, the honored apostle, nor because he could claim the endorsement of the Jerusalem Apostolic Council, but because they examined his arguments themselves to find whether they were scriptural and true.

      Let our readers be Bereans. We want that Muslims come to faith because they become convinced of the truth of the Gospel through the soundness of the material we present, and we want our Christian brothers and sisters to develop their convictions about their own faith and about Islam for the same reasons: Because it is true.

      The sad thing is, not everything that evangelical Christians write about Islam is true (not even everything they write about the Bible and the Christian faith). We would not doubt their Christian faith, but we cannot agree with their statements about Islam. We cannot recommend their writings just because they are Evangelicals, and—to remain consistent—we do not want others to believe us, just because we wear that label.

      The same holds for the question of academic qualifications. Some of our authors are teaching Theology, Religious Studies or even Islamic Studies at Universities. But there are too many professors of Islamic Studies who spread false information about Islam, while some self-taught laymen have a much deeper understanding. Evaluate the quality of our writings for yourself, and do not fall into the fallacy of appeal to authority.

      This all said, we are Evangelical Christians and agree without reservations with the statement of faith as given, for example, by the World Evangelical Alliance and the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization.

      May the Lord God bless you and guide you as you seek to know Him and His Truth.

      Your Answering Islam team

      http://www.answering-islam.org/about.html

      Their truths...Don't look for scholarly information or any information derived from fact on their site because their isn't any. Don't look for Evangelicans on their site, because none of them are willing to list their names and prove their authenticity... But these anonomous writers and editors are christian and know more than even other christian and Islamic scholars, so you should believe them. LOL Be the Bereans and don't question the sources of information... nice...

      And cigarettes don't cause cancer... the earth is flat... the Holocaust never happened... and Christopher Columbus discovered America...

      People can be so guilible sometimes! Like I said in other posts Goes... Most of your information comes from these ficticious websites.

        #3.1 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:12 PM EST
        bluearcher

        Like I said in other posts Goes... Most of your information comes from these ficticious websites.

        Refute the specifics then. General dismissals of entire web sites is disingenuous in itself.

        The Lost Archive

        There has never been "just one" Koran.

        And that doesn't even take into consideration that Arabic was not an homogeneous written language at the time of the compiling of the Koran. And lets further obfuscate the Koran with the Hadith and Sunnah.

        • 5 votes
        #3.2 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:01 PM EDT
        larrrs

        Bluearcher, my thoughts as well.

        wakeuppeople,

        Are you refuting any statements, or not? We tend to have a reasonable debate based on some exchange of ideas; and, you have presented no such response.

        ...but your bull@!$%# here...

        And cigarettes don't cause cancer... the earth is flat... the Holocaust never happened... and Christopher Columbus discovered America...

        ...LOL

        :~)

        ...do you really expect anyone to take that same illogical leap with you?!

        what a laugh!

        • 3 votes
        #3.3 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:01 PM EDT
        Reply
        Goes

        yeah, because answering Islam is an authority on Islam... NOT!!

        Their truths...Don't look for scholarly information or any information derived from fact on their site because their isn't any. Don't look for Evangelicans on their site, because none of them are willing to list their names and prove their authenticity... But these anonomous writers and editors are christian and know more than even other christian and Islamic scholars, so you should believe them. LOL Be the Bereans and don't question the sources of information... nice...

        And cigarettes don't cause cancer... the earth is flat... the Holocaust never happened... and Christopher Columbus discovered America...

        People can be so guilible sometimes! Like I said in other posts Goes... Most of your information comes from these ficticious websites.

        I never said that any of the sites. I am using for the translated material I need, is of any authority, and just like you quoted from their site. Information are translated and given on this site. All I am doing is searching the translated material that supports my point. I know what my point is, and I know what the answer is, I Google my point, and check the results, and when I find the translated material, that matches my own point of view, and understanding of the subject, I copy it, and present it. To translate every point I am discussing with you from Arabic to English, is a lot of work, and time, that I don’t have, and the information is already there, and translated. All I have to do is find it.

        The main point is regardless of the translation’s source, I am using Qur’an, and hadith to support my point, the only objection you can bring up is whether the information is true, or not, in other words, if for instance I quoted one hadith from wherever, the point is, is this hadith correct, and available in the original source mentioned or not. If it is a correct one, and available, there is no point of objecting, but if it is not true and available in the Islamic books, this would be a totally different issue, and you definitely have the right to object, and call me a lire.

        Whoa, whoa, whoa... show me where in that verse you quoted it says marriage is not required? It doesn't say that AT ALL.

        Tafsier Al Jalalyn

        If you fear that you will not act justly, [that] you will [not] be equitable, towards the orphans, and are thus distressed in this matter, then also fear lest you be unjust towards women when you marry them; marry such (mā means man) women as seem good to you, two or three or four, that is, [each man may marry] two, or three, or four, but do not exceed this; but if you fear you will not be equitable, towards them in terms of [their] expenses and [individual] share; then, marry, only one, or, restrict yourself to, what your right hands own, of slavegirls, since these do not have the same rights as wives; thus, by that marrying of only four, or only one, or resorting to slavegirls, it is likelier, it is nearer [in outcome], that you will not be unjust, [that] you will [not] be inequitable.

        Tafsier Ibn Annas

        (And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans) and if you fear that you will not preserve orphans' wealth, you should also fear not dealing fairly with women in relation to providing sustenance and apportionment. This was because they used to marry as many women as they liked, as many as nine or ten. Qays Ibn al-Harth for example had eight wives. Allah forbade them from doing so and prohibited them from marrying more than four wives, saying: (marry of the women, who seem good to you) marry that which Allah has made lawful for you, (two or three or four) marry one, two, three or four but do not marry more than four wives; (and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice) to four wives in relation to apportionment and providing sustenance (then one (only)) then marry only one free woman (or that your right hands possess) of captives, and in that case you do not owe them any apportionment, and they need not observe any waiting period. (Thus it) marrying just one woman (is more likely that ye will not do injustice) that you will not incline to some at the expense of others or that you transgress regarding the provision of sustenance and apportionment to four wives.

        Ibn Kathier

        (2. And give unto orphans their property and do not exchange (your) bad things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by adding it) to your substance. Surely, this is a great sin.) (3. And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the servants) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from Ta`ulu.) (4. And give to the women (whom you marry) their Saduqat (or dowry) Nihlah (with a good heart), but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it, and enjoy it without fear of any harm.)

        Note that when they all talk about captives, they talk in the plural term, they also say that they don’t have the same rights as the free ones, and that include, waiting period, marriage, and heritage.

        Wrong. Adultery is specifically cheating on your spouse. Fornication is simply having sex. Both hold the same punishment, as per the ayat I quoted. They are not separate.

        They are, as per the so many hadiths I quoted, showing that the stoning verse was lost.

        In the time of Muhammad, Jewish people were still bound by Jewish law under muslim rule. Int he Torah, the punishment for adultery is stoning. And so jews who were caught cheating on their spouse were stoned to death. We know this from hadith...

        Sahih Muslim, Book 17, Number 4191:
        "Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death."

        Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37:

        Narrated Abu Qilaba:

        Once 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him. Then he admitted them and (when they came in), he said, "What do you think of Al-Qasama?" They said, "We say that it is lawful to depend on Al-Qasama in Qisas, as the previous Muslim Caliphs carried out Qisas depending on it." Then he said to me, "O Abu Qilaba! What do you say about it?" He let me appear before the people and I said, "O Chief of the Believers! You have the chiefs of the army staff and the nobles of the Arabs. If fifty of them testified that a married man had committed illegal sexual intercourse in Damascus but they had not seen him (doing so), would you stone him?" He said, "No." I said, "If fifty of them testified that a man had committed theft in Hums, would you cut off his hand though they did not see him?" He replied, "No." I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and

        Book 017, Number 4196:

        Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

        Muslim Book 017, Number 4206:

        'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned. He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

        Now, as muslims we know we are supposed to follow the Torah and Bible unless the Qur'an abrogates them. So for years, because the Torah said the penalty for adultery was stoning, the Prophet used the same punishment. Surah 24, was one of the last revelations Muhammad had (102nd out of 114). And once it was received, IT abrogated the Torah's penalty of stoning. Even if Muhammad had ordered the penalty of stoning for adultery BEFORE Surah 24 was revealed, he didn't afterward becaues he upheld the message of the Qur'an. Umar and others may have continued to issue that punishment unjustly after Muhammad died, but nevertheless it is IN the Qur'an, was one of the last Surahs to be given, and it abrogates the previous penalty which was taken from the Torah. There is a hadith that alludes to this...

        Because you know you are lying about Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar stoning, you said the above. But logically, are you telling me that you know Islam, and its rules better than Muhammad’s companions?! I don’t believe that, sorry. Also Omar Ibn Abdle Azyz the khalifa, doesn’t know?! This Khalifa was very well known to be one of the best.

        Narrated Ash-Shaibani: I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa about the Rajam (stoning) somebody to death for committing illegal sexual intercourse). He replied, "The Prophet carried out the penalty of Rajam," I asked, "Was that before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur?" He replied, "I do not know."(Sahih Bukhari, Book #82, Hadith #824)

        If he said no, it would have been a point supporting your statement, but as long as he doesn’t know, supports more my argument, and here is one more

        Qur’an 4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.

        The above ayah, prove one of two things, either I am right, and the stoning verse, was there, and then it was lost, or your claim of the Qur’an abrogating Judaism, Christianity, and not itself is wrong, as it abrogates itself, with cancelling this verse, and replacing it with the surah 24 one. Which problem do you prefer?!

        Wake, there were two collections made, one made by Abu Bakr, and this is what Umar left with Hafsa, and the reason for it was Yamama casualties. The second one, which is a totally different one, was done by Uthman, when too many variations occurred, in recitations, as well as many other things.

        Completely wrong. I have it correct. Re-read the hadiths. Also historically, can you tell me the order of those three Khalifs?!

        No they are all tied together. Both show that you have no idea what you are talking about. You find something on one of these anti-islamic websites and then regurgitate it here without ever looking it up for yourself. You are claiming the Battle of Tabuk was one of the 29 without ever knowing about it. So it is very relevant to our conversation. Just like how you have the story of the qur'an's compilation backwards because you've been reading it off of Answering Islam's site and not from the actual hadith.

        I will read about Tabouk, and let you know, in the mean time repeat your question regarding this battle please.

        He doesn't have to consent his wife. It is neither in the Qur'an, or hadith.

        It is in the Qur'an, you actually quoted it already. "...but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one..." You see, if marrying a second wife would disrupt your marriage with your first wife or make her feel like her marriage to you is unjust, then you CANNOT MARRY THE SECOND WIFE. Hence asking permission. Some countries gloss over this line in the ayat and try to say men can marry without the consent of the other wife or wives. But because that line PROTECTS your existing wife and marriage, you have to make sure your first wife won't object to a second wife or third or fourth. Because if she objects, then she will feel you are treating her unjustly in your marriage and it will ruin your marriage. And THAT is Haram.

        This is incorrect too. Nothing in the ayah talks about consenting wives. If that was true it would have been clear, but he is talking to them men, as usual, and leaving the decision to their discretion by saying “but if you fear”, and not “if they fear that you shall not be able to deal justly” I believe Allah was not a very well educated guy, to be able to write a clear message!

        Man you really should start taking classes at a mosque. They teach you all this stuff there... seriously. There is SOOOOO much you just don't know.

        No, thank you, I don’t like being deceived!

        Common sense tells me not to ASSUME anything. Where was Zaid when he said that Hadith? Please show me... How long after he finished his copying did he say this Hadith? Please show me...

        And not following the interpretations, and making up your own mind, about your faith, as per Qur’an’s teaching, is not assuming?!

        The hadith in which Zaid mentioned that he was missing a verse, was during his collection for Uthman, which comes after his first collection for Abu Bakr, and Hafsa being given a copy of the first collection by her father Umar, and which Uthman borrowed it from her, which means it should have been there already.

        Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23) (Sahih Bukhari, Book #61, Hadith #510)

        No... if it wasn't written down then why was Zaid collecting leafs, leather parchment and stones with writing on them for Abu Bakr? Your argument makes no sense!

        This is the third time to remind you that what caused all this debate, was your claim that the Qur’an in its entirety was written down during Muhammad’s life, and my argument was always that only parts of it were written down, and not the whole Qur’an, which was first done by Abu Bakr.

        with all these copies, variations, and discrepancies happened, and that what lead Uthman at the end to burning all other versions. It was not only recitation problem, as you think.

        ok, then show me it wasn't a problem with the recitation, as the hadiths state.

        During the reign of `Uthman, teachers were teaching this or that reading to their students. When the students met and disagreed about the reading, they reported the differences to their teachings. They would defend their readings, condemning the others as heretical.'[Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif]

        "How can you order me to recite the reading of Zaid, when I recited from the very mouth of the Prophet some seventy Surahs?" "Am I," asks Abdullah, "to abandon what I acquired from the very lips of the Prophet?" (Masahif" by Ibn abi Dawood, 824-897 AD, pp. 12, 14).

        If his version was the same as the one collected by Zeid, or even the difference was only in the dialect, why did he refuse to give his own version to be burned?!

        Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:

        I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you." Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61

        Did Muhammad talk about dialects here? Or Muhammad himself who thought both of them, used to speak different dialects? All the talk was about ways, if it was only dialect, it wouldn’t have caused all this anger. And here comes an important question in which of the seven ways Muhammad mentioned Qur’an is written in the preserved book in heaven (Al lawh al mahgouz)?

        Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

        I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) Verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same Verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "BOTH OF YOU ARE CORRECT, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed." Bukhuri: vol. 4, hadith 682, book 56

        this is your own fiction. The qur'an clearly never abrogates ITSELF. It abrogates the Torah and Bible.

        I proved to you above that is does, and here are some more.

        In the Qur’an ‘Al baqara’ (106) “And for whatever verse We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?” Actually this verse alone is more than enough to clearly prove that ‘Al Naskh’ has happened, and no Muslim can deny or change that fact, this is a Qur’an verse. This verse was explained by ‘Ibn Garir’ in his explanation of the Qur’an, part 1, page 104, “Abrogate, means makes what was not a sin a sin, and what was a sin, a non sin was. Prohibit what was not prohibited, and un-prohibit what was prohibited...” Also ‘Al Nasafy’ in his first part of his explanation to the Qur’an, page 116. “Abrogate, is exacting the rule, or ending its effect.” Also we find this verse in ‘Al Nahl’ (101) “And when We exchange a verse in the place of another verse and God knows very well what He is sending down -- they say, 'Thou art a mere forger!' Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge.” ‘Al Raad’ (39) “God blots out, and He establishes whatsoever He will; and with Him is the Essence of the Book.” ‘Al Fath’ (52) We sent not ever any Messenger or Prophet before thee, but that Satan cast into his fancy, when he was fancying; but God annuls what Satan casts, then God confirms His signs -- surely God is All-knowing, All-wise –“Did you ever hear before that the devil spoke to any of the prophets before Mohamed, and God had to change whatever the devil told that prophet, and he wrote in his book?!

        Wrong again! how can you even try to debate Islam if you don't know what the pillars of Islam are!?!?!?!

        I am sorry, it is my mistake, used the wrong expression, you are correct about the five pillars. What I meant should be sources better describing that the Qur’an, and sunnah, are the two sources for the Islamic faith.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#4 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:33 PM EST
        Goes

        WakeUpPeople-1385514

        It looks you ran away from our discussion for the second time. Anyway, if you ever came back to reply my post above, here is a reference to our original discussion about this topic for your convenience.

        Ex-Muslim: Proposal that Islam is Tolerant is Fallacious, Dangerous - "Islam is more than a religion. It does have a spiritual dimension ... but there is another dimension to Islam – a political dimension."

        And your last post was #5.79 - Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:24 PM EST

        • 5 votes
        Reply#5 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:00 AM EST
        WakeUpPeople-1385514

        Not running away. I'm fasting right now. Not supposed to debate or argue while fasting. Will try to respond after Eid.

        • 1 vote
        #5.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:05 PM EST
        Goes

        OK, wake, happy eid.

        • 5 votes
        #5.2 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:27 AM EST
        bluearcher

        I'm fasting right now. Not supposed to debate or argue while fasting.

        Seriously?

        Do you actually believe your god supports and enforces aspects that micromanage your life?

        We can debate religious text endlessly but the common denominator is still the fact that there is absolutely no evidence for any god.

        The continual belief in fairy tales written by men with less education than a fourth grader is untenable.

        • 3 votes
        #5.3 - Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:13 PM EDT
        Reply
        Goes

        Hsdiths mentioning stoning actions, or verse.

        Bukhary

        Volume 8, Book 78, Number 629:

        Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:

        Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was wiser, said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak. The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer serving this (person) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, The people said that my son is to be stoned to death, but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the learned people, who informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and will be exiled for one year, and stoning will be the lot for the man's wife." Allah's Apostle said, "Indeed, by Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws: As for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then he scourged his son one hundred lashes and exiled him for one year. Then Unais Al-Aslami was ordered to go to the wife of the second man, and if she confessed (the crime), then stone her to death. She did confess, so he stoned her to death.

        Volume 8, Book 82, Number 806:

        Narrated Abu Huraira:

        A man came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque, and he called him, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.'" The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but that man repeated his statement four times, and after he bore witness against himself four times, the Prophet called him, saying, "Are you mad?" The man said, "No." The Prophet said, "Are you married?" The man said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said, 'Take him away and stone him to death." Jabir bin 'Abdullah said: I was among the ones who participated in stoning him and we stoned him at the Musalla. When the stones troubled him, he fled, but we over took him at Al-Harra and stoned him to death.

        Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

        Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

        'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

        Muslim

        Book 017, Number 4192:

        'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.

        Book 017, Number 4194:

        'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

        Book 017, Number 4209:

        Abu Huraira and Zaid b Khalid al-Juhani reported that one of the desert tribes came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I beg of you in the name of Allah that you pronounce judgment about me according to the Book of Allah. The second claimant who was wiser than him said: Well, decide amongst us according to the Book of Allah, but permit me (to say something). Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon ham) said: Say. He said: My son was a servant in the house of this person and he committed adultery with his wife. I was informed that my son deserved stoning to death (as punishment for this offence). I gave one hundred goats and a slave girl as ransom for this. I asked the scholars (if this could serve as an expiation for this offence). They informed me that my son deserved one hundred lathes and exile for one year. and this woman deserved stoning (as she was married). Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life. I will decide between you according to the Book of Allah. The slave-girl and the goats should be given back, and your son is to be punished with one hundred lashes and exile for one year. And, O Unais (b. Zuhaq al-Aslami), go to this woman in the morning, and if she makes a confession, then stone her. He (the narrator) said: He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death.

        Abu Dawud

        Book 38, Number 4405:

        Narrated Nu'aym ibn Huzzal:

        Yazid ibn Nu'aym ibn Huzzal, on his father's authority said: Ma'iz ibn Malik was an orphan under the protection of my father. He had illegal sexual intercourse with a slave-girl belonging to a clan. My father said to him: Go to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and inform him of what you have done, for he may perhaps ask Allah for your forgiveness. His purpose in that was simply a hope that it might be a way of escape for him.

        So he went to him and said: Apostle of Allah! I have committed fornication, so inflict on me the punishment ordained by Allah. He (the Prophet) turned away from him, so he came back and said: Apostle of Allah! I have committed fornication, so inflict on me the punishment ordained by Allah. He (again) turned away from him, so he came back and said: Apostle of Allah! I have committed fornication, so inflict on me the punishment ordained by Allah.

        When he uttered it four times, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: You have said it four times. With whom did you commit it?

        He replied: With so and so. He asked: Did you lie down with her? He replied: Yes. He asked: Had your skin been in contact with hers? He replied. Yes. He asked: Did you have intercourse with her? He said: Yes. So he (the Prophet) gave orders that he should be stoned to death. He was then taken out to the Harrah, and while he was being stoned he felt the effect of the stones and could not bear it and fled. But Abdullah ibn Unays encountered him when those who had been stoning him could not catch up with him. He threw the bone of a camel's foreleg at him, which hit him and killed him. They then went to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and reported it to him.

        He said: Why did you not leave him alone. Perhaps he might have repented and been forgiven by Allah.

        Malek's muwatta

        Book 28, Number 28.18.42:

        Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that Khawla ibn Hakim came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ''Rabia ibn Umayya made a temporary marriage with a woman and she is pregnant by him.'' Umar ibn al-Khattab went out in dismay dragging his cloak, saying, "This temporary marriage, had I come across it, I would have ordered stoning and done away with it! "

        Book 41, Number 41.1.6:

        Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud that Abu Hurayra and Zayd ibn Khalid al-Juhani informed him that two men brought a dispute to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. One of them said, "Messenger of Allah! Judge between us by the Book of Allah!" The other said, and he was the wiser of the two, "Yes, Messenger of Allah. Judge between us by the Book of Allah and give me permission to speak." He said, "Speak." He said, "My son was hired by this person and he committed fornication with his wife. He told me that my son deserved stoning, and I ransomed him for one hundred sheep and a slave-girl. Then I asked the people of knowledge and they told me that my son deserved to be flogged with one hundred lashes and exiled for a year, and they informed me that the woman deserved to be stoned." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "By him in whose Hand myself is, I will judge between you by the Book of Allah. As for your sheep and slave girl, they should be returned to you. Your son should have one hundred lashes and be exiled for a year." He ordered Unays al-Aslami to go to the wife of the other man and to stone her if she confessed . She confessed and he stoned her.

        Book 41, Number 41.1.8:

        Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud that Abdullah ibn Abbas said, "I heard Umar ibn al-Khattab say, 'Stoning is in the Book of Allah for those who commit adultery, men or women when they are muhsan and when there is clear proof of pregnancy or a confession.' "

        Book 41, Number 41.1.10:

        Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "When Umar ibn al-Khattab came from Mina, he made his camel kneel at al-Abtah, and then he gathered a pile of small stones and cast his cloak over them and dropped to the ground. Then he raised his hands to the sky and said, 'O Allah! I have become old and my strength has weakened. My flock is scattered. Take me to You with nothing missed out and without having neglected anything.' Then he went to Madina and addressed the people. He said, 'People! Sunan have been laid down for you. Obligations have been placed upon you. You have been left with a clear way unless you lead people astray right and left.' He struck one of his hands on the other and then said, 'Take care lest you destroy the ayat of stoning so that one will say, "We do not find two hadds in the Book of Allah." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, stoned, so we have stoned. By He in Whose Hand my self is, had it not been that people would say that Umar ibn al-Khattab has added to the Book of Allah ta-ala, we would have written it, "The full-grown man and the full-grown woman, stone them absolutely." We have certainly recited that.'"

        Malik said, "Yahya ibn Said said Said ibn al-Musayyab said, 'Dhu'l-Hijja had not passed before Umar was murdered, may Allah have mercy on him.' "

        Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "As for his words 'The full-grown man and the full-grown woman' he meant, 'The man and the woman who have been married, stone them absolutely.' "

        • 5 votes
        Reply#6 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:51 AM EST
        Goes

        Bukhary

        Volume 3, Book 48, Number 823:

        Narrated 'Aisha:

        The Prophet heard a man (reciting Quran) in the Mosque, and he said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy upon him. No doubt, he made me remember such-and such Verses of such-and-such Sura which I dropped (from my memory).

        How come the prophet forgers, and people don't, and if he had every revelation written down immediately, how did that happen?!

        • 4 votes
        Reply#7 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:45 AM EST
        Goes

        Bukhary

        Volume 6, Book 61, Number 556:

        Narrated Aisha:

        The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah."

        Volume 6, Book 61, Number 558:

        Narrated Aisha:

        Allah's Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."

        • 5 votes
        Reply#8 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:12 AM EST
        Goes

        Bukhary

        Volume 6, Book 61, Number 562:

        Narrated 'Aisha:

        The Prophet heard a reciter reciting, the Qur'an in the mosque at night. The Prophet said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has remind ed me of such-and-such Verses of such and-such Suras, which I missed!"

        • 4 votes
        Reply#9 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:17 AM EST
        Goes

        "When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning." Another translation goes:

        The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.

        Sunan Ibn Maja, Volume 2, Page 39, Published Karachi.
        Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Volume 6, Page 269, Published Beirut.
        The Interpretation of Conflicting Narrations, Page 310, Published Beirut

        • 5 votes
        Reply#10 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:31 PM EST
        kpr37

        Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

        The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them," He said,

        "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?"

        the Jews of the Arab peninsula,were not at this time stoning. That practice had stopped long before Islam.And Christians continued the Jewish tradition, and never practiced stoning.

        They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them. "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.

        Bukhari (6:60:79)

        Ibn kathir has more information

        • 6 votes
        #10.1 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:10 PM EST
        kpr37

        The Jews Alter and Change the Law, Such As Stoning the Adulterer

        [يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَضِعِهِ]

        (They change the words from their places:) by altering their meanings and knowingly distorting them after they comprehended them,

        [يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَـذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ]

        http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13875

        • 4 votes
        #10.2 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:15 PM EST
        WakeUpPeople-1385514

        "When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning." Another translation goes:

        The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.

        Sunan Ibn Maja, Volume 2, Page 39, Published Karachi.
        Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Volume 6, Page 269, Published Beirut.
        The Interpretation of Conflicting Narrations, Page 310, Published Beirut

        This is a joke right? hmmmm... a goat ate your homework huh? Please tell me you can see the fallacy in that statement!?! It literally made me laugh out loud when I read it!!!

        Also who are you trying to say "said" this? No mention who said this or the chain of narrators who conveyed this... Has it been declared Da'if or Maudu? Maybe you should read this...

        http://thebookshq.com/download/sunan-ibn-majah-pdf-1.html

        Myths and realities of Hadith - A critical study by Akbarally Meherally

        ...In 'Criticism of Hadith among Muslims with Reference to Sunan ibn Maja (p.41) there are names of narrators who invented hadiths on "the merits of each Sura of the Qur'an" when they found people deserting the Qur'an and occupying themselves with Fiqh (jurisprudence) of Abu Hanifa and Maghazi (battles) of ibn Ishaq... Pg 9

        ...Today, Muslim scholars have found the collections by the later scholar ('ibn Majah) to have defective narrations... pg 12

        I also find it ironic that you are using THIS as your argument since you have been arguing with me that the Qur'an was never written down during the life of Muhammad...

        so by using the "the goat ate my paper" excuse, you are acknowledging that your previous claim was false, since you would have to admit that Muhammad (pbuh) wrote down every revelation in order to support the "goat ate it" statement.

        So which is it, your "goat ate my homework" defense or "the Qur'an was never written during Muhammad's life" defense?

        And the circles goes round and round...

          #10.3 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:10 PM EST
          Reply
          Goes

          WakeUpPeople-1385514

          Once again, I never said that the Qur'an was not at all written during Muhammad's life. I only said that it was partially written, you are the one who was saying that it was written down in its entirety during his life, which is incorrect.

          The only hadith yu argued was mentioned by Aisha, and if you followed the posts, you would have noticed that I said to Kpr who mentioned this hadith, that I still didn't find it in my research, so he gave me a link.

          This is not the only hadith I am building my argument upon, There are many others mentioned through out our discussion, you should remember.

          Please don't neglect everything else which was mentioned in this subject, and take only one hadith. Start reading after your last post on this article, so you can catch up.

          And happy eid once again.

          • 4 votes
          #11 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:52 AM EST
          kpr37

          The only hadith yu argued was mentioned by Aisha, and if you followed the posts, you would have noticed that I said to Kpr who mentioned this hadith, that I still didn't find it in my research, so he gave me a link.

          here is a better one,there are many.

          and they all are well sourced, and Islamic in origin.As we can see stoning in some nation the have sharia law in place. it is with out question that there is still debate within the ummah about this question.

          V) THE CLAIM THAT THE QUR`AN ONCE CONTAINED A VERSE ABOUT AL-RAJM BUT THE VERSE WAS OMITTED FROM THE QUR`AN

          Although this claim has the support of several ahadith, one of which uses the authority of ‘Umar and is found in most Hadith collections, it raises insurmountable difficulties. Why was the verse omitted from the Qur`an? If its omission was an accident, why would not Muslim leaders restore the verse to the Qur`anic text when its absence from the Qur`an was noticed? If, as some other narrations tell us, people thought that addition to the Book of God was not permissible in his eyes, surely he must have thought the same about omission. Hence he was duty bound to restore the missing verse. One cannot say that the verse was "suppressed" by the higher authority of the Prophet that ‘Umar could not overturn; for, why would the Prophet suppress the verse while allowing the practice laid down by it to continue? Some traditions tell us that ‘Umar feared that the absence of the verse from the Qur`an would make people ignore a divine injunction. Why did he not prevent this from happening by adding the verse to the Qur`an where it belonged? The verse could not have been forgotten by the whole Muslim ummah. In the time of ‘Umar there were still alive many hundreds of the Prophet's Companions who, we are told in some narrations, used to recite the verse and memorise it.

          Supporters of al-rajm never really deal with the above questions in any satisfactory way. For example, Ibn Kathir quotes many of the traditions about the stoning “verse” and seems to accept the idea of such a verse but does not raise any of the relevant and important questions mentioned above, much less give some sensible answers to them. Some scholars have come up with the concept of two types of abrogated verses mansukh al-tilawah (abrogated in respect to recitation) and mansukh al-‘amal (abrogated in respect to practice). It is said that the verse about stoning was mansukh al-tilawah and not mansukh al-‘amal. But coining such new technical terms does nothing to reduce the extreme weakness of the idea of a verse that was in pracitce but was omitted from the Qur`an.

          It seems that some supporters of stoning are aware of the difficulties pointed out above and so they choose to ignore the “stoning verse”. Thus in his justification of the stoning penalty Shafi‘i does not at all refer to any tradition about the “stoning verse”. Mawdudi quotes some narrations of hadith attributed to ‘Umar but does not in any way use them to justify his support of al-rajm. For him they are simply an addition to the ahadith about al-rajm and serve to embelish the evidence for it. Moreover, many narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith state that pregnancy can by itself provide proof of zina` but a majority of the supporters of al-rajm, including Shafi‘i and Mawdudi, reject that view.

          One may ask: if the idea of a verse about stoning, omitted from the Qur`an and banned from recitation in the daily prayers but still practiced is as absurd as we have suggested, then how could it find its way in our best Hadith collections and be accepted widely? This question ignores the fact that given right circumstances completely wrong ideas can develop and get accepted by a vast majority of people, including some very learned persons. Take for example the Christian belief in the Trinity. This belief has no basis in the teaching of Jesus, his eyewitness disciples, the gospels, other books of the Bible, or rational thought. Yet at one point it became a dominant idea in Christendom and is still professed by a majority of the church-going Christians, including some very learned ones.

          In view of the weaknesses of the idea of a missing verse on stoning pointed out above, we need an extremely solid proof that this idea indeed was expressed by a man of such caliber as ‘Umar al-Faruq. Let us examine the various traditions more closely to see if such proof is forthcoming. Our examination of these traditions, like that of other ahadith on al-rajm in Part II, is of necessity somewhat technical, detailed, and therefore seemingly complex. A reader who wants to discover the true Sunnah of our beloved Prophet for himself/herself must go through such examination of ahadith. It is like if you want to understand for yourself phenomena of nature, you much be prepared to follow science with some of its complex experiments, equations and theories.

          We begin our examination with, and focus primarily on, ‘Umar’s hadith, which alone has some credibility with the muhaddithun. Later, we will also briefly consider other traditions about the stoning verse.

          http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning3.htm

          • 5 votes
          #11.1 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:15 AM EST
          Goes

          Thank you Kpr.

          • 3 votes
          #11.2 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:26 AM EST
          WakeUpPeople-1385514

          Once again, I never said that the Qur'an was not at all written during Muhammad's life

          Really? So you never said this...

          WakeUpPeople-1385514

          Wasn't orally transmitted. Muhammad (pbuh) had every revelation written down immediately after he recieved it. After his death, it was put together into one continuous book. The oldest of which is still perfectly preserved, and dates back to within 100 years of his death.

          And here is a link to refuse your point, the collection of Qur'an.

          #5.27 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 12:09 PM PDT

          Once again you are trying desperately to defend Islam, despite of any logic or sense, you said the Qur'an was written while Muhammad was alive, and I showed you it was not, and yet your delusions takes you the time after the other to totally misunderstand the point, and assume some other thing, which is more and more ridicules.
          #5.38 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 11:45 AM PDT

            #11.3 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:44 PM EST
            WakeUpPeople-1385514

            I think I see the problem here... you have not read my original post thoroughly...

            I said in my original post...

            Wasn't orally transmitted. Muhammad (pbuh) had every revelation written down immediately after he recieved it. After his death, it was put together into one continuous book. The oldest of which is still perfectly preserved, and dates back to within 100 years of his death.

            #5.24 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 11:53 AM PDT

            Then you replied the next day...

            It was never claimed, that a full version of the Qur'an was collected during Muhammad's life.

            #5.34 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 7:01 AM PDT

            Then after that you said...

            you said the Qur'an was written while Muhammad was alive, and I showed you it was not

            #5.38 - Thu Nov 4, 2010 11:45 AM PDT

            But then in your editorial you siad...

            it was clearly mentioned, that Mohamed ordered the writers, to write whatever verse he receives, to keep those verses safe from being lost or forgotten....

            From all of the above, we reach the conclusion, that the Qur’an in its present form was not created during the life of Muhammad, and this destroys all theories claiming that it was completed during the life of Muhammad.

            now you are saying...

            Once again, I never said that the Qur'an was not at all written during Muhammad's life. I only said that it was partially written, you are the one who was saying that it was written down in its entirety during his life, which is incorrect.

            #11 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:52 AM PST

            So from my perspective, do you see how your comment in 5.38 contradicts your comment in #11?

            I think for some reason it seems like you think I am saying the Qur'an was "collected" and turned into the current written book form of the Qur'an during the life of the prophet. Which from the beginning I never said that. I said Muhammad had every revelation written down and then copied and sent around so people could learn to recite it. But it was never written into a "book" as he received his revelation. It was written on whatever they could find at the time. A rock, leaf, bone, etc. And then copied onto other such pieces of whatever they could find.

            I don't understand why you keep thinking that I'm saying the written "book" form of the Qur'an was compiled during the life of Muhammad (pbuh).

            But... if you already mention that "it was clearly mentioned" that Muhammad ordered writers to write down whatever verses he received... then how can you claim that only some of the verses were written down and others were not? Granted they weren't collected into a single book until after his death, but that doesn't mean that each revelation wasn't written down when he received it.


              #11.4 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:20 PM EST
              Goes

              WakeUpPeople-1385514

              I don't know what is happening, you keep misunderstanding me. The conflict, as I mentioned over,and over began when you said that the Qur'an in its entirety was written during the life of Muhammad, and I said it was not written down in its entirety during his life, and following are quotes of my posts clearing this.

              It was never claimed, that a full version of the Qur'an was collected during Muhammad's life.

              #5.34

              You cannot even realize that my post was to show only one thing, that your claim of the Qur'an being collected, and written in its present form did not occur while Muhammad was alive according to your claims.

              That is what I wrote at the end of my post explaining its purpose, which you missed, as usual.

              It was never claimed, that a full version of the Qur'an was collected during Muhammad's life.

              #5.38 -

              And if the Qurr'an was written in its fullest during the life of Muhammad, why did, Abu bakr, Umar, and Othman had to listen, and collect the Qur'an from its reciters, as it happened? Wouldn't it be easier, and more accurate to just make new copies of the one which was already collected compiled during Muhammad's life?!

              #5.41

              Even if Muhammad had them written down, on different papers, and not in a form of a book, why did the followers had to get it from the reciters, and not from these papers, all the hadiths referring to the collection of Qur'an, did not mention that it was all written, on the contrary they all show that a great part of it was not at all written.

              #5.44

              Do you have anything referring to the methid used in its collection supporting your claim, that it was already written in some form, and Abu Bakr, and Umar after him, were examining this scripture, against what the reciters already memorized, and when it is totally confirmed against the scripture, it was written down in the one Qur'an?!

              #5.49

              No, I mean in the hadith itself, or sierah, do you have anything saying that they were comparing the text which was already written during Muhammad's life, and getting two people to confirm that what they remember is exactly, as what was written, and then they confirm the validity of the text, and include it in the Qur'an that has being formed?!

              #5.52

              1- If it was in its entirety written down, why was it urgent to start doing this after the large casualties in Yamama?! If those men had scripts, and not memorized, even if they were killed, the scripts would be still be available in their houses.

              2- All the quotes you mentioned supports one fact, that the largest part of the Qur'an was memorized by those men, and it could have been lost forever, if this collection was not done.

              3- If there was a full script of the Qur'an, wouldn't it be very important for Muhammad to keep it in his own house, and then safeguard it with one of his wives, so it will be available in its entirety for Muslims after his death?! Which Umar himself did by keeping a copy with Hafsa, who was one of Muhammad's wives!

              #5.58

              It was not all written down during his life, and the proof does not have to be repeated once again, it is very clear in my previous post, that it would have been lost if it was not collected by Abu Bakr, and Umar after him. Once again all the hadith referring to Abu Bakr's collection were talking about the Qur'an itself, and not its recitation, as you tried to claim.

              This proves that this verse was not in Hfsa's Qur'an, which was given to her by her father Umar who collected the so called "perfect" copy of the Qur'an with Abu Bakr. This also proves that not all of the Qur'an was written down during Muhammad's life, because if it was, this verse wouldn't be missing from the first collection version.

              #5.66

              Let me remind you once again of the main reason, this whole debate started. It started when you stated that the Qur'an in its entirety was written down during Muhammad's life, and along the way other issues were brought up, like the imperfection of today's Qur'an, which will lead to its not being from GOD. This is the reason why you cannot drop this debate, because if you did you should accordingly drop Islam.

              #5.76 -

              After the amount of quotes that I found in my previous posts mentioning my point of view, it looks to me that you were cherry picking, were you Wake?!

              • 5 votes
              #11.5 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:24 PM EST
              WakeUpPeople-1385514

              yeah, but all of your quotes you just posted are saying the same thing as I mentioned in my post... you haven't changed your filpflop stance at all by posting more of your old posts.

              And actually... you are proving me right even more...

              you said...

              You cannot even realize that my post was to show only one thing, that your claim of the Qur'an being collected, and written in its present form did not occur while Muhammad was alive according to your claims.

              That is what I wrote at the end of my post explaining its purpose, which you missed, as usual.

              It was never claimed, that a full version of the Qur'an was collected during Muhammad's life.

              #5.38 -

              But that was never MY claim. Read my original post again...

              Wasn't orally transmitted. Muhammad (pbuh) had every revelation written down immediately after he recieved it. After his death, it was put together into one continuous book. The oldest of which is still perfectly preserved, and dates back to within 100 years of his death.

              #5.24 - Wed Nov 3, 2010 11:53 AM PDT

                #11.6 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:29 PM EST
                Goes

                Oooooooooops, let's try to reach a point to where to start here, in your stance you mentioned every revelation, which means that all the Qur'an ayat were written down, regardless of the written material form, during the life of Muhammad, Is that correct?!

                • 3 votes
                #11.7 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:30 PM EST
                WakeUpPeople-1385514

                specifically, yes. Every year when he received revelation... it would be written down and then handed out to people so they could memorize it.

                  #11.8 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:36 PM EST
                  Goes

                  specifically, yes. Every year when he received revelation... it would be written down and then handed out to people so they could memorize it.

                  Which leads to the conclusion that by his death, and accordingly the end of revelations, all what revealed was written down, again in some form, and nothing was orally transmitted without being written down?!

                  • 3 votes
                  #11.9 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:45 PM EST
                  WakeUpPeople-1385514

                  it had been written down. But the emphasis at that time, as is still current in Islam, was on reciting the Qur'an and it's spoken form. Not the writing itself.

                  So one revelation you might get handed to you written on a leaf. The next one you get, maybe even a year later, was written on a stone. The next one after that might be told to you orally by someone. You were supposed to memorize them regardless of how you personally received them. What you did with the pieces of writing after you memorized them was irrelevant. I'm sure some people discarded them. Others handed it to someone else.

                  You are trying to make the assumption that nothing was orally transmitted. And this is also not the case. Not everyone got each revelation written down to memorize from. Some people memorized them from listening and repeating. How did people that were illiterate back then learn the Qur'an?

                  For example, I speak my whole salat in arabic. Yet I'm am learning how to read arabic, and when I learned how to perform salah I couldn't read arabic at all. So how could I have learned how to recite Al Fatiha if I couldn't read it? Orally! And when you go to a Mosque, there is a definite emphasis on RECITING the Qur'an, not simply reading it.

                  Also important to note, was at the time of the Prophet the ORDER of the Surahs wasn't important either. As the Hadith from Aisha attests to. It was (and still is) more important to recite the Qur'an, than to read it.

                    #11.10 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:59 PM EST
                    Goes

                    And here where our conflict of point of views started, it was not ALL written down, if it was, wouldn't it be wise from Muhammad, or even Allah to order that a full written scripture is to be kept somewhere? And this somewhere shouldn't it be more likely to be Muhammad house, or Abu Bakr, his first Khalifa, or even Umar his second?!

                    • 2 votes
                    #11.11 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:06 PM EST
                    WakeUpPeople-1385514

                    it was not ALL written down, if it was, wouldn't it be wise from Muhammad, or even Allah to order that a full written scripture is to be kept somewhere?

                    well now that is all speculation and assumption on your part. Remember this was before the printing press. Things had to be HAND COPIED. Yet the human mind has an AMAZING ability to memorize things, especially things that are musical or sung. How many people can remember the Chorus to a song like "Beat It" or "Bad" by Michael Jackson without having ever seen it written down on paper? Finish this sentence for me..."All we have to fear, is ____" Or how about "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what _____?" How did you know how to finish those phrases? How do most people know how to finish those phrases? It's not because they read them, but because they HEARD THEM. Therefore, what would be the point of keeping a written manuscript of all the revelations when hand copying takes a lot of time and the Prophet put an emphasis on the spoken words, not the writing.

                    Also, one could say your same argument/assumption about the life of Jesus (pbuh) and the new testament. Why are only 4 of the books from Apostles that actually followed him while he was alive, and why didn't they write everything down as it happened and not after the fact?

                    you see, your argument is irrelevant.

                    In Muhammad's time the written word of the Qur'an was not important. Reciting it was. The writing was a means to an end. There was no emphasis put on the actual writing until after Muhammad (pbuh) passed away. Muhammad (pbuh) himself put emphasis on reciting the Qur'an and memorizing it. So why would any of the followers feel the need to copy each revelation into one continuous book at that time?

                      #11.12 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:24 PM EST
                      kpr37

                      In 1999, Toby Lester, the executive editor of the website of The Atlantic Monthly reported on Puin's discoveries: "Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence.

                      What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God."

                      More than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Qur'ans have been flattened, cleaned, treated, sorted, and assembled. They await further examination in Yemen's House of Manuscripts. Yet that is something Islamic authorities seem unwilling to allow. Puin suggests, "They want to keep this thing low-profile, as we do, although for different reasons."

                      Puin, and his colleague Graf von Bothmer, an Islamic historian, have published short essays on what they discovered. They continue to feel that when the Yemeni authorities realize the implications of the find, they will refuse further access. Von Bothmer, however, in 1997 shot 35,000 microfilm pictures of the fragments, and has brought the pictures back to Germany. The texts will soon be scrutinized and the findings published freely - a prospect that pleases Puin. "So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Qur'an is Allah's unaltered word. They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Qur'an has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Qur'an has a history too. The Sana'a fragments will help us accomplish this."

                      http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/5280938

                      • 4 votes
                      #11.13 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:12 PM EST
                      Goes

                      Kpr, this is a very good point, Wake Muslim's belief the scripture of the Qur'an, and its perfection as it came down from Allah, has the utmost importance unlike in Christianity or Judaism,, and this makes my point very relevant Wake. A text of that importance to and entire nation of 1.66 billion today should have taken much more attention in documenting it, or Allah didn't know that in the old times?!

                      And yet, all the hadiths mentioned before concerning the collection of the Qur'an by Abu Bakr, clearly states that a large portion was not written.

                      • 3 votes
                      #11.14 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:29 PM EST
                      WakeUpPeople-1385514

                      yeah, but you have to look at both sides of that story...

                      First... SOME, not all of the parchment dates to the 8th century... It has writing written underneath it that had been scraped off and then written over. So there is no way to tell if the writing is actually from the 8th century or not.

                      Second, the oldest Uthman Qur'an, dated to the late 7th century or early 8th century is in Uzbekistan.

                      http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/oldest_quran_in_the_world.htm

                      And here is a response to Puin...

                      In 2000, The Guardian interviewed a number of academics for their responses to Puin's claims, including Dr Tarif Khalidi, a lecturer in Islamic Studies at Cambridge University, and Professor Allen Jones, a lecturer in Koranic Studies at Oxford University. In regard to Puin's claim that certain words and pronunciations in the Koran were not standardized until the ninth century, the article notes.[1]

                      Jones admits there have been 'trifling' changes made to the Uthmanic recension. Khalidi says the traditional Muslim account of the Koran's development is still more or less true. 'I haven't yet seen anything to radically alter my view,' he says.

                      [Jones] believes that the Sa'na Koran could just be a bad copy that was being used by people to whom the Uthmanic text had not reached yet. 'It's not inconceivable that after the promulgation of the Uthmanic text, it took a long time to filter down.'

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts

                      And finally. what exactly were the differences that Puin found? Were they huge, major differences? The answer to that would be... "No." So the idea that this was a bad hand-copied job is very likely. For all we know, these could be scraps of paper used by students to learn how to write the Qur'an!!! And here Puin is looking at them as though they are official copies. Until he can accuratly identify WHAT they are, other than "fragments of parchment with bits of the Qur'an written on them". Then his interpretation of them doesn't really mean much.

                      Were these supposed to be offical copies? Maybe they were offical copies that were rejected and thrown out because they were copied incorrectly...and that's why they are so fragmented? Maybe they are scraps from someone learning how to write the Qur'an? Maybe they were written by an anti-islamic group in the 8th century with the intent to distribute them in hopes to divide and confuse muslims?

                      All of my "guesses" are just as good as Puin's until he can find something else specifically citing WHAT they are exactly.

                        #11.15 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:27 PM EST
                        Goes

                        WakeUpPeople-1385514

                        It looks that we are going to keep going back and forth in sub categories of the original subject.

                        The problem here is whether the Qur'an is the perfect, untouched word of Allah revealed to Muhammad, or is it an imperfect book.

                        No doubt that this is a vital point in the Islamic faith, so my suggestion is that you go back to the original topic here, and start discussing it, so we can all go back on the right track, also I suggest that we limit our discussion regarding the collection of the Qur'an to the period from Muhammad, to Uthman, and from this period we will be able to see if the Qur'an is perfect or not.

                        • 3 votes
                        #11.16 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:34 AM EST
                        WakeUpPeople-1385514

                        Oh!!! I didn't realize we were discussing whether the Qur'an is perfect or not... I thought we were talking about whether it was written down in some way during the life of Muhammad or not.

                        Whether it is perfect or not is in the eyes and hearts of the readers and has nothing to do with when it was written. Even if it was orally transmitted without ever being written down before Muhammad's (pbuh) death, it could still be considered perfect. Writing in and of itself does not automatically equal perfect.

                        So how are you (or anyone) going to define "perfect"? Before we can say it is "perfect" or not, we have to agree as to what "perfect" is.

                          #11.17 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:15 PM EST
                          WakeUpPeople-1385514

                          Kpr, this is a very good point,

                          It looks that we are going to keep going back and forth in sub categories of the original subject.

                          The problem here is whether the Qur'an is the perfect, untouched word of Allah revealed to Muhammad, or is it an imperfect book.

                          I guess it was a good point until I shot it to shreds, huh?...and then you decided to try and move back to another subject which is still different than the original subject that started this whole thing... You set a target for discussion. I blow it to bits... then you move the target and say, "no, THIS was what we were supposed to be talking about, not that other thing..." LOL Nice work.

                            #11.18 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:24 PM EST
                            Goes

                            This is not at all my intention, if you go back and read the main article it will clearly show that I am originally talking about the claim of the Qur'an perfection. Kpr raised a good point, but being it discussed in the recent time, and not as close as possible to when the Qur'an started will take us away from the main focus.

                            or Allah didn't know that in the old times?!

                            And yet, all the hadiths mentioned before concerning the collection of the Qur'an by Abu Bakr, clearly states that a large portion was not written.

                            Being Kpr's a good point in my opinion did not mean that I wanted to come to a point that recent, but if you look closely, you will notice that my main focus was still in the early period which I wanted to focus on.

                            As for the perfection of the Qur'an, and the basis of this perfection, the Qur'an itself, did put the base, and criteria, on winch we can judge whether it is perfect or not, as mentioned in the original article.

                            My discussion with you regarding the collection of the Qur'an, and the problems associated with this collection, as well as al nasekh walmansoukh, will lead to the goal behind this whole issue, and reaching a conclusion about the Qur'an, and whether it was a revelation, or man creation.

                            • 2 votes
                            #11.19 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:38 PM EST
                            Goes

                            By the way, I wrote an article about Aisha's age when Muhammad married her, you may want to take a look.

                            How old Aisha was when Muhammad married her?!

                            • 3 votes
                            #11.20 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:46 PM EST
                            WakeUpPeople-1385514

                            I dont' need to, I wrote an article about that a long time ago.

                              #11.21 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:16 PM EST
                              WakeUpPeople-1385514

                              I read through your article a couple times. While there are lots of hadith listed... I never once saw you say anything to the effect of "In order for the qur'an to be considered perfect, it needs to be ____". And that's the problem for me. You aren't defining what perfect is. You are just throwing random quotes out about how it was collected.

                              You technically aren't even saying that the Qur'an isn't perfect... all you are saying is this...

                              The conclusion is that the claim by Muslims, that Qur’an is the untouched, complete, and preserved word of Allah, is nothing but more of Islam myth and poor Muslims are well rested that they have the full truth from Allah revealed to Muhammad.

                              It is not only Muhammad, wrote this book, and included what he wanted to build his Islamic empire, but Also Abu Bakr, Umar, Zaid, and Utman are his partners in presenting to the world the Qut’an in its present form.

                              So one could say, hypothetically speaking, even if it doesn't include every ayat Muhammad ever received, it can still be considered the complete, untouched and perserved word of Allah. Do I agree with your assumptions that it isn't the complete untouched word of Allah as dictated to Muhammad (pbuh)? No I don't.

                              And you have yet to show me anything that really proves your point without having to "fill in holes", make assumptions and add your own commentary.

                                #11.22 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:19 PM EST
                                Goes

                                If my article, and the quotes from the Qur'an doesn't show you what the perfection of the Qur'an should be, why don't you tell me what does Islam mean by its perfection?!

                                If you don't see that the Qur'an not being collected in its entirety during Muhammad's life is imperfection, and being collected the way it was, during Abu Bakr, and after him Uthman? What do you think it is?

                                If you don't see that missing ayat is not imperfection? What would it be?

                                If you don't see that determining the order of suras after Muhammad's death is imperfection? What would it be?

                                If you don't see that the abrogation is imperfection? what would it be?

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.23 - Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:16 AM EST
                                Extraterrestrial

                                A perfect fraud! The biggest flimflam job in all recorded history!

                                • 6 votes
                                #11.24 - Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:59 PM EDT
                                Goes

                                Isn't it?! And poor Muslims are well rested that they have the perfect untouched book:)

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.25 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:18 AM EDT
                                Extraterrestrial

                                I don't know how they can claim that their book is untouched unless they are referring to the fact that the only ones who haven't touched it are the ones who are sane.

                                It is rather obvious that this book did not fall from the sky even by their own admission.

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.26 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:20 PM EDT
                                Goes

                                Didn't Allah say so, so they will believe it even if they saw its alteration with their own eyes, and this is what Islam did to its own people

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.27 - Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:40 AM EDT
                                kpr37

                                Back to the verse of stoning.I came across this today and remembered this article.

                                The Book Pertaining to Punishments Prescribed by Islam (Kitab Al-Hudud)

                                Muslim :: Book 17 : Hadith 4194

                                'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

                                http://www.quranexplorer.com/Hadith/English/Hadith/muslim/017.4194.html

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.28 - Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:35 PM EDT
                                Elaine-1503791

                                We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

                                The Book Of Hatred, Oppression, Hypocrisy and Selective Punishment. Why is it men can rape a Muslim woman because they don't like the look of her hijab, and then stone her to death because she was raped? Why is it men can stone to death their un-married daughters who dared to become "westernized"?

                                Know why? Because they are violent , sick, perverted people who love to inflict suffering, love to see death and blood, and they intend to keep women submissive. Stoning serves as an example to others....you could be next. Stoning a few men here and there serves the same purpose....strong overcoming the weak. And of course, hanging gays is always good for an afternoon family outing.

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.29 - Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:29 PM EDT
                                Goes

                                Did you all notice the excuses, and at the the end the escape of Wake regarding this subject?

                                After this you find this guy is still defending Islam on other topics trying to use his knowledge of Islam, and the lack of the other parties knowledge of Islam.

                                He is not the only one, all the Muslims whom I encountered on the vine did the very same thing.

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.30 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:22 PM EDT
                                bluearcher

                                "In order for the qur'an to be considered perfect, it needs to be ____". And that's the problem for me. You aren't defining what perfect is. You are just throwing random quotes out about how it was collected.

                                The problem here being that there is no such thing as a "perfect" religious text since it is based upon dogma, opinion, and delusion.

                                • 1 vote
                                #11.31 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:25 PM EDT
                                Elaine-1503791

                                He is not the only one, all the Muslims whom I encountered on the vine did the very same thing.

                                Here's why:

                                The following are some of the methods Muslim activists are now adopting:

                                CHANGE OF IDENTITY

                                Muslim activists in the West avoid referring to teachings that may offend the Western citizen, such as the Islamic code of punishment.

                                CHANGE OF VOCABULARY

                                Instead of living in isolation from society, they are using now a completely new terminology. Words like love, grace... are now part of their vocabulary. Theological Christian terms such as : Salvation, Justification and Sanctification are now part of their teachings.

                                They change Quranic translations to hide some of Islam's harsh teachings.

                                CHANGE OF STRATEGY

                                Their new strategy lies in trying to be accepted, included and involved in all activities; religious, social and political.

                                They are now becoming active in partisan functions in order to have a say in parties platforms. They conduct letter compaigns to members of Congress to influence legislation. They run for public offices in hope of reaching a position of authority.

                                Lots of information here:

                                Islam: the Facade and the Facts

                                http://www.islamreview.com/articles/facade.shtml

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.32 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:28 PM EDT
                                bluearcher

                                Excellent contribution, Elaine. Permission to post to other site?

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.33 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:33 PM EDT
                                Elaine-1503791

                                Excellent contribution, Elaine. Permission to post to other site?

                                Of course. The link is public.

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.34 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:53 PM EDT
                                Goes

                                Excellent find Elaine, thank you.

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.35 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:17 PM EDT
                                Goes

                                The last thing they want to do is to shock people. They once had a Muslim host on their TV. program with a Christian name, "Paul"; names like Mohammed, Mustafa and Omar were too strong to swallow they thought. They use the term "Sunday School" in place of "Friday Class", and they end their speeches with the Christian expression "may God bless you".

                                This reminded me of Muslims doing the same thing on a show that exposed Islam in the Middle East, they called the show pretending to be converts to Islam from Christianity, the presenter was experienced enough to ask them about something in Christianity, at ehat point they either gang up, because they don't have the answer or curse the man.

                                • 4 votes
                                #11.36 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
                                Goes

                                The stage of weakness and the stage of Jihad (Holy War)

                                It seems that these new tactics we discussed are not without precedent in Islamic history. Mohammed Hassanein Heikal, the noted Egyptian author, refers to this concept in his book "Autumn Furor". He states:

                                "So the element of Jihad emerged in the ideology of Abul Aala Almaudoody. He went on to differentiate between two separate stages a Muslim community goes through:

                                "The stage of weakness - In it a Muslim community is unable to take charge of its own destiny. In this case - according to his thinking - they must withdraw for the purpose of preparing themselves to be capable of executing the second stage.

                                "The second stage is the Jihad stage, and it will come when the Muslim community has completed its prepardness and is ready to come out of its isolation to take charge, through Jihad.

                                "In this, Abul Aala Almaudoody was making a comparison between the two stages of weakness and Jihad on the one hand, and on the other hand, Mohammed's struggle in Mecca then in Medina."

                                The only three stages of the Islamic nation

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.37 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:26 PM EDT
                                Elaine-1503791

                                Excellent find Elaine, thank you.

                                Full credit to our friend NJ Person who directed me to the site.

                                • 3 votes
                                #11.38 - Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:30 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                WakeUpPeople-1385514

                                Oh, and Eid Mubarak to you and thank you for saying Happy Eid to me, even though you don't celebrate the holiday yourself!

                                • 1 vote
                                Reply#12 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:38 PM EST
                                Goes

                                BukharyVolume 3, Book 41, Number 601:

                                Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

                                I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah's Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me." The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way." He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, "It was revealed in this way. The Qur'an has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you."

                                In Arabic way is the word letters, which refers to readings, and that means that the Qur'an was revealed in seven different methods of readings, where are they today, and which of those readings is in the preserved tablet?

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#13 - Tue Dec 7, 2010 3:11 PM EST
                                Goes

                                Bukhary Volume 6, Book 61, Number 514:

                                Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

                                I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),

                                "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#14 - Tue Dec 7, 2010 3:17 PM EST
                                Goes

                                Bukhary Volume 6, Book 61, Number 561:

                                Narrated Umar bin Khattab:

                                I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited it in several ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. So I was on the point of attacking him in the prayer, but I waited till he finished his prayer, and then I seized him by the collar and said, "Who taught you this Surah which I have heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You are telling a lie; By Allah! Allah's Apostle taught me (in a different way) this very Surah which I have heard you reciting." So I took him, leading him to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I heard this person reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way that you did not teach me, and you have taught me Surat-al-Furqan." The Prophet said, "O Hisham, recite!" So he recited in the same way as I heard him recite it before. On that Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Then Allah's Apostle said, "Recite, O 'Umar!" So I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed to be recited in this way." Allah" Apostle added, "The Quran has been revealed to be recited in several different ways, so recite of it that which is easier for you."

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#15 - Tue Dec 7, 2010 3:18 PM EST
                                Elaine-1503791

                                Excellent article Goes. I always appreciate the in-depth research and information you provide on the shadowy world of Islam.

                                The conclusion is that the claim by Muslims, that Qur'an is the untouched, complete, and preserved word of Allah, is nothing but more of Islam myth and poor Muslims are well rested that they have the full truth from Allah revealed to Muhammad.

                                It is not only Muhammad, wrote this book, and included what he wanted to build his Islamic empire, but Also Abu Bakr, Umar, Zaid, and Utman are his partners in presenting to the world the Qut'an in its present form.

                                The most fascinating thing about Islam to me is the irony of their self-described 'religion of peace' when in fact, it is a religion of aggression, suppression, oppression and lies.

                                Aggression: the action of violating by force the rights of others; an unprovoked offensive, attack, invasion, or the like:

                                Suppression: To put an end to forcibly; subdue; To curtail or prohibit the activities of; To keep from being revealed

                                Oppression: the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner

                                Lies: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a
                                falsehood; something intended or serving to convey a false impression

                                And, the inevitable denial of the followers and apologists of Islam who use programmed defense mechanisms.

                                Defense Mechanisms: Denial; Repression and Suppression; Displacement; Sublimation
                                Projection; Intellectualization ; Rationalization; Regression; Reaction

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#16 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:11 AM EDT
                                Goes

                                Very well stated Elaine, and it is unbelievably true, and very condensed to describe Islam and what it is doing to the world. Thank you for stopping by and posting.

                                • 4 votes
                                #16.1 - Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:22 AM EDT
                                Reply
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