Who gave the Qur'an to Muhammed?

Let me tell you what my point is. If this revelation was really from God, Mohamed wouldn't need any confirmations from people, either the one I mentioned, and you rejected, because it was not mentioned in Bukhary, or even the one that you mentioned, and was confirmed by Waraqa. Did you ever hear about a prophet receiving a revelation form God, and asked some people to confirm that?!!

No Salik, revelation was not only through Christ, revelation was also given to normal people like Mohamed, and those people are the ones I was talking about. Once again, non of those prophets, like Moses, David, Soliman, and so on needed any sort of confirmation from anyone, when they received God's message. Mohamed was the only one, because he was the only one who did not receive any message from God, and claimed himself God's prophet.

Also non of these prophet, suffered from the symptoms which Mohamed suffered from. On the contrary, they usualy gain strength and peace, when they see a real Angel.

No, there is nothing in the Torah, or the Bible that mentions Mohamed, or any other prophet after Christ, on the contrary, Christ mentioned false prophets, that will try deceiving people and making them Satin followers, and this is exactly what Mohamed did.

salik

Let me start from the last question, I am Christian.

Let me first tell you, when you need to understand a biblical text, you need to use explanations given by Christians, and Jews, and not Muslims trying to twist history, and truth to make it appear that Mohamed was mentioned in the Torah, and the bible. This is what I am doing when speaking about Islam, I give you references from Muslim books and scholars.

mattthew 21:42 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Here Christ was talking to Jews, and Farsi, explaining that they were the people of God, but by refusing him, they will no longer be the chosen nation, and will be replaced by Christ followers.

1) From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a "great nation".

You said it yourself, is Mohamed from Israel?!

2) A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).

Where did you get this from?!

another name of Mecca)

Once again, what is your source of this information?!

Let me ask you one question. If this was the case as you think, and Mohamed was clearly mentioned in both the Torah, and the Bible, although neither Jews, nor Christians believe in Mohamed, and the Qur'an is saying that both the Torah, and Bible were abrogated. Why neither Jews, nor Christians erased the referring test to Mohamed?! And by the way, when, where, and how the abrogation of the Holy books happened? And why God did not preserve those books, while he preserved the Qur'an?!

Salik

ok, thanks for answering my question although i have reasons to belive that you are jewish but anyways.

You are welcome. There is no need whatsoever to sell you something about mytelf that is not true, this is not from my beliefs to lie.

produce its fruit=spread the blessings of God's true religion and bring peace.

OK, you said it yourself, spread the word peacefully, and bring peace. This is what happened with Christianity before Islam. It was spread peacefully, and brought peace. This is not the way that Islam spread, it did through war, and land conquest, you know, and history knows that this was how Islam spread. This also declines your argument that this verse had anything to do with Mohamed.

if according to matthews 'the people' are christ followers, why were they unable to produce 'the fruit' and why 'the fruit' never produced before advent of Muhammad(PBUH)???

It looks to me that you really need to learn more about the history of the region, during that period of time. It was Christian, and through conquests, Islam converted the region by force. So this is once again cannot be the fruit of true religion.

yes Muhammad(PBUH) is decsendant of Ismael(A.S) son of Ibrahim (A.S) you doubt that???

No, I confirm that, but once again you need to learn history, Israel has nothing to do with Abraham. It is Jacob who was first named Israel. You can relate any of his descendents to Israel, but not his grand fathers.

This is the main issue and it exists right from the day Muhammad(PBUH) announced his prophethood, accepting the fact that prophecised prophet is Muhammad(PBUH) means denying their own faith which is certainely not deirable to followers of earlier books!! therefore they twisted the meanings just like you twisted matthews reference above that 'people' means 'christ followers' which is not the case and historical facts prove that as well.

The first sura of the Qur’an which is named “Al Fatha” the opening, is as following.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Abdallah Yussif Ali’s translation

Now, let’s see the explanation of the last verse 7 as interpreted by the greatest Islam interpreters.

Tfsier Al Jalaleyn, the most respective tafsier.

the path of those whom You have favoured, with guidance (from alladhīna together with its relative clause is substituted by [ghayri l-maghdūbi ‘alayhim]) not [the path] of those against whom there is wrath, namely, the Jews, and nor of those who are astray, namely, the Christians. The subtle meaning implied by this substitution is that the guided ones are neither the Jews nor the Christians. But God knows best what is right, and to Him is the Return and the [final] Resort. May God bless our lord Muhammad (s), his Family and Companions and grant them everlasting peace. Sufficient is God for us; an excellent Guardian is He. There is no power and no strength save in God, the High, the Tremendous.

Ibn Abbas

(The path of those whom Thou hast favoured), the Religion of those whom You have blessed with the Religion and who are the followers of Moses, before the blessings of Allah deserted them, in that He shaded them with a white cloud and sent down on them honey and quails when they were in the wilderness. It is also said that (the path of those whom Thou hast favoured) refers to the prophets. (Not of those who earn Thine anger), not the religion of the Jews who earned Your anger, whom You forsook and whose hearts You did not protect until they became complaisant. (Nor of those who go astray), nor the religion of the Christians who erred from Islam. Amen: thus shall be its custodians; it is also said that Amen means let it be so. It is also said that it means: O our Lord! Do with us as we have requested You. And Allah knows best'.

The main reason of saying so, is that both Jews, and Christians are accused by Islam, that they abrogated their holy books, and specifically to erase any prophesy regarding Mohamed. I didn't even have to mention the above sura, and its tafsier, as this is a very will known issue all over the world, that you are trying to say differently now.

As for the converting stories you are asking me to read, will do, and let me know my opinion in a later time.

You may also be intersected in reading about Muslims who left Islam , and their reasons in doing so.Below is a link to their names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_converted_to_Christianity

Salik

I read the story of the preacher who you suggested that I read, and here are my findings

How Could This Be?
This did not seem possible to me. After all, the original languages of the Bible have all been dead languages for centuries and the documents themselves have been lost in their originals for hundreds and thousands of years. So, how could it be that something like this could be so easy to preserve and to recite from cover to cover.

This is not true. Qur'an is the most tempered with book. Here is a couple of my articles regarding this issue, and I urge you to search more.

http://goes.newsvine.com/_news/2010/08/27/4983103-quranic-abrigation-al-nasekh-wal-mansoukh

And here is how the Qur'an was collected

The Qur’an, and all Muslims, are claiming that the Qur’an’s script, is not, and cannot be tempered with, ad God himself promised to protect it. He didn’t make the same promise. From their point of view, in protecting the Torah, and the bible.

In this section, I am going to discuss this claim, and we will see wether this claim is valid, or the best kept book, was tempered with, in many stages, and by many people?

The collection, and writing of the Qur’an, started when Mohamed was still alive. In many of the Islamic books, it was clearly mentioned, that Mohamed ordered the writhers, to write whatever verse he receives, to keep those verses safe from being lost or forgotten. The very big question regarding this fact that was mentioned by several Islamic writhers; if this was the case? Where are the sources of those writings? Not one of them has been discovered and preserved, as the sources for the Holly book were found and preserved?

They keep all kinds of possessions, which Mohamed had, but not one single source for the Qur’an, Isn’t that very strange?!

Muslims claim that the Qur’an was written on wooden and stone material. Those wooden, and stone material were kept, preserved the Qur’an from loss. If that was the case, where is the Qur’an which was written in Mecca? As we all know, Mohamed fled from Mecca with Abu Bakr, and they had nothing more with them. The Qur’an material which was supposed to be transported from Mecca to Al Madinah, needed 20 rides to carry them as per Mohamed’s Sobeih book ‘New research about the Holly Qur’an’ pages 87 and 88.

This was supposed to be the first collection of the Qur’an, during Mohamed’s era. If this was the case, and the Qur’an was collected during Mohamed’s life, there was no point of having the second collection of the Qur’an, the way it was made, and we are going to see in the following section.

Abu Bakr Al Seddiq the first Khalifa who came after Mohaned’s death, asked Omar Ibn Al Khattab and Zaid Ibn Thabet to collect the Qur’an from the people who remember it, and they have to make sure that whatever they collect, is remembered by at least two people. So why did this collection had to made this way, if there was an earlier collection made, and the Qur’an is already collected and written?

Omar Ibn Al Khattab stated that the Qur’an was much more than what they were able to collect in that collection, therefore they had to reduce the restriction of the two witnesses to one, regardless of the differences between what they remember. They also gave themselves the freedom to accept or refuse verses offered by different Qur’an studiers.

Each of his testament points, that I will see it needs to be addressed, will be mentioned when I come to it.

Priest Goes to the Mosque
Anyway, one day the priest asked the Mohamed if he might accompany him to the mosque to see what it was like there. They came back talking about their experience there and we could not wait to ask the priest what it was like and what all types of ceremonies they performed. He said they didn't really 'do' anything. They just came and prayed and left. I said: "They left? Without any speeches or singing?" He said that was right.

Priest Enters Islam!
A few more days went by and the Catholic priest asked Mohamed if he might join him again for a trip to the mosque which they did. But this time it was different. They did not come back for a very long time. It became dark and we worried that something might have happened to them. Finally they arrived and when they came in the door I immediately recognized Mohamed, but who was this alongside of him? Someone wearing a white robe and a white cap. Hold on a minute! It was the priest. I said to him: "Pete? -- Did you become a 'Moslem?'
He said that he had entered into Islam that very day. THE PRIEST BECAME A MUSLIM!! What next? (You'll see).

Miraculous, one trip to a mosque convinced a Christian priest to convert to Islam, and so many facts I am giving you didn't do the same thing to you while you are not a cleric. Isn't this story a bit silly to be swallowed by a five years old kid?!!

My Wife Announces Her Islam!
So, I went upstairs to think things over a bit and began to talk to my wife about the whole subject. She then told me that she too was going to enter into Islam, because she knew it was the truth.

On what basis she knew it was the truth, converting from one faith to another comes like that in an instant, and without anything to back it up, I mean studies comparison...? Even sillier.

Truth Had Come!
By the time he was ready to pray Fajr (the morning prayer of the Muslims) I knew that the truth had come at last and now it was up to me to do my part. I went out back behind my father's house and found an old piece of plywood lying under an overhang and right there I put my head down on the ground facing the direction that the Muslims pray five times a day.

Guide Me! O God! Guide Me!
Now then in that position, with my body stretched out on the plywood and my head on the ground, I asked: "O God. If you are there, guide me, guide me."

Sign Inside of Me
And then after a while I raised up my head and I noticed something. No, I didn't see birds or angels coming out of the sky nor did I hear voices or music, nor did I see bright lights and flashes. What I did notice was a change inside of me. I was aware now more than ever before that it was time for me to stop any lying and doing anything sneaky. It was time that I really work at being an honest and upright man. I knew now what I had to do.

Wash Away the "OLD"
So I went upstairs and took a shower with the distinct idea that I was 'washing' away the sinful old person that I had become over the years. And I was now coming into a new, fresh life. A life based on truth and proof.

That is so strange, he gave a lot of reasons why he had doubts about Christianity, and at the end he converted to Islam, based on truth, and proof. What proof is he talking about. He did not give us one single reason for being convinced that Islam was the truth.

Here is the link to the site, and its silly story

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf/priests_n_preachers.htm

salik

You are always welcome to post your opinion in response to my posts, trying to defend Islam, and at the end it is up to you, or to the reader, as well as it is up to me to accept or dispute every point that is being posted.

As for starting a new post to discuss issues you see in Christianity, you are of course free to do whatever you wish to, but let me tell you a couple of things. First I am not going to join any discussions of that sort, and spend my time on it; the free time that I gave is dedicated to revealing truth about Islam. Second, even if you were ever able to prove anything about Christianity, what difference will that make regarding Islam being violent, and not from GOD?!

Regarding Muslims converting to Christianity read my following post, they are in millions yearly in the Arab world http://goes.newsvine.com/_news/2010/09/21/5150704-do-we-have-six-million-converting-from-islam-to-christianity

I also witnessed myself how fearful Muslim clerics in the Arab world are, when it comes to the number of Muslims converting to Christianity. It is known as (al tansier).

You did not comment on any of my ideas regarding the silly story of the converting preacher! Silly story isn't it?!

Salik

so this is your attitude when some one questions you!! you are not even willing to confront anything....did you get the same response when you insulted islam?? no, every one answerd your points in a decent way even though you crossed certain limits at some points. Well, the reality is open to every one now that Islam teaches tolerance open mindedness and rationality whereas your behavior depicts nothing but hipocracy, self-righteousness and hate.

First of all I don't have to confront anything, I am not in a defensive position, and I am not going to be. Defending Christianity have its own people to do so. Also Christianity have been studied, and criticized over history, now it's is Islam's turn.

I did not insult Islam, I am revealing facts, and those facts are supported by Islamic scholars proofs, so if you consider these things insulting, you should then revise Islam, and look for yourself how insulting to humanity it is.

I don't think you were able to answer any of my questions, and they all remain unanswered.

Now you are comparing my behavior to an entire religion (Islam), and with all what I wrote about, are you still able to convince yourself that Islam teaches tolerance? what a joke!

good hobby, go on....all the best :)

Thank you, it is useful too!

hey Goes, you know what, i am not gonna enjoy myself alone on that page...your positive response would be much appreciated. Would you please join my discussion now?

Sorry for the delay, what discussion, you are giving me nothing to discuss Salik!

I don't know why did you want to discuss other things than Islam with me especially? You can find thousand other viners willing to discuss your subject, all you need to do is just start.

I believe that what I am doing is beneficial, and satisfying enough for me at this time.

If this was a propaganda which is making no difference, why are you here standing up, and trying defending Islam?!