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GOES

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The Prophet Muhammed's Morals (Poll)

Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:06 PM EDT
religion, morals, prophet, mohameds
By Goes

Live Poll

Can such a person be a prophet, and a messanger from God?

View Results
  • 111412
    Yes
    7%
  • 111413
    No
    93%

VoteTotal Votes: 29

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Purity

The Qur’an says in ‘Al Qalam’ (4) “And most surely you conform [yourself] to sublime morality”. And in ‘Al Ahzanb’ (21) “Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.”

If he really was, as great as the Qur’an described him, he would be an example, in following the instructions, set by his book. But, the fact is, that Mohamed, broke the rules that he included, in his Qur’an. The first rule he broke, is what concerned marriage, in Islam. The Qur’an said in ‘Al Nisaa’ (3) “And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry [Usually uses the f word and not marry as in the translation] such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice [between them], then [marry] only one or what your right hands possess [more women]; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.” As for Mohamed himself, he kept nine wives, at the same time, excluding the slaves, and whom who gave themselves to him. This number reached sixty six women total. To approve his exclusion from this rule, he inserted the following verse in ‘Al Ahzab’ (50) “O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the [rest of] believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” “If the profit wanted a free woman, he could have her without a marriage contract, or her crown [usually the father], or witnesses.” This is what he did, with Zainab bent Gahsh. “And if he wanted a married woman, her husband had to divorce her for him, and if she was a slave, her master had to give her to him as a gift.” ‘Al Shafee’ part 3, page 377. “The profit didn’t die, until having all women, was OK for him. ‘Ibn Saad’ part 8, page 194.

One of those women, which he got married to, was ‘Aaisha’, who was nine years old, when he married her, while he was fifty three. For this reason, he added the following verse, in the Qur’an ‘Al Talaaq’ (4) “And [as for] those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and [as for] the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of [his duty to] Allah He will make easy for him his affair.”

The above, are just some examples, showing how Mohamed was breaking the rules, which he put in his Qur’an, those rules, were for his followers to follow, and for him to break, as we have already seen. There are so many more examples, for the rules braking. The full list will need, a much bigger research, than this one, to include them all.

In a quick look, on other sorts of strange behavior, Mohamed was a bisexual person. He also had sex with a dead woman. He used to uncover his legs, in front of his followers, and sometimes, naked. He also used to dress in his wives dresses. This sick behavior was mentioned in; at least, twenty of the very reliable books, written by the most trusted ‘Imams’ of the Islam.

Mohamed’s vocabulary also, wasn’t that pure. As we all know, prophets should possess respectful vocabulary, and keep their tongues, from badmouthing, and cursing. He used to use very dirty, sexual words, in his vocabulary. The F. word, was often used by Mohamed, sixty seven Islamic books, mentioned his use of that word. “From Abbas said, Maez Bin Malek, came to the prophet, and the prophet asked him, did you kiss, or look? He said, no, prophet of God, Mohamed said, did you @!$%# her? he answered yes, and then, he ordered to stone the man”, ‘Sahieh Al Bukhary, by the Bukhary’ part 6, page 2502.. Also this word, is usually used in the Qur’an, instead of the marriage word, as if that the sexual relationship, is all what marriage is about; that is why, that word was used, instead of the marriage. This is the only example, I am going to include regarding Mohamed using the dirtiest words, to express himself, but books are full of them.

Mohamed’s Terrorism

The Qur’an says in ‘Al Anfal’ (60) “Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to terrify thereby the enemy of God and your enemy, and others besides them that you know not; God knows them. And whatsoever you expend in the way of God shall be repaid you in full; you will not be wronged.” Mohamed also said “I was ordered to fight all people, until they become Muslims, and if they did, they would save their blood, and money from me”, ‘Al BuKharty’ hadith 2983. Also in Qur’an ‘Mohamed (35) “So do not faint and call for peace; you shall be the upper ones, and God is with you, and will not deprive you of your works”

“The prophet sent Zaid Ibn Harethah to kill Om Qerfa [an aged woman], and when he killed her, he sent her shirt to the prophet, who hang it between two shafts, ‘Tariekh Madinat Demashq by Ibn Asaker’ part 19, page 364.. “Om Qerfa is an old aged woman and he killed her aggressively,” ‘Al Hawy Al Kabeer by Al Mawardy’ part 14, page 47. In the resources, it was not clear, what could such an old woman do, to deserve such a death.

He also killed ‘Asmaa Bint Marwan’ because she satire him. He sent her ‘Omair Bin Ady’ at night, while she was among her children, and she was breastfeeding one of them. He touched her, because he was blind, took the baby off her, and stuck his sward in her chest, till it came out of her back. He then returned, and prayed the morning payer with the prophet, who asked him, if he killed her? He answered yes, and asked if that was a sin? The prophet answered no, but forgiveness, and called him ‘the seer.’ This story came in the book of ‘Ibn Saad, Al Tabaqat Al Kobra’ part 2 and page 27, and ‘Ghwamed Al Asmaa written by Ibn Bishkwal’ part 8 and page 20.

This is their prophet; this is the best man on earth, from their point of view. Nothing, but a terrorist, and a killer; Killing even woman!

The following chart, prepared by Fr. Botros, will present how many times, in both Al Qur’an and ;Al Ahadith’ which are Mohamed’s sayings, and the second source for the Islam’s faith, terrorism related words were used:

The word Times used

Terrorism 260

Assassination 710

Revenge 177

Genocide 159

Invasion 1798

The sward 1511

Archery 2400

Throwing spears 4854

Blood spilling 1951

Killing 9048

War 4258

Al Jihad 6898

From the above chart, we can see that terrorism is a basic core, of the Islam, and is not something strange, done by some radicals, who don’t know their true faith. Those, who we call radical Muslims, are the true ones, whom from the Islam’s point of view, love their God so much, therefore, they have the courage, to kill and be killed, for him.

And to even prove more, that terrorism is one of the Islam basics, I will give you some examples from the Qur’an. ‘Al Anfal’ (60) “Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to terrify thereby the enemy of God and your enemy, and others besides them that you know not; God knows them. And whatsoever you expend in the way of God shall be repaid you in full; you will not be wronged.” ‘Al Tawba’ (5) “Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate”. (29) “Kill those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled”. ‘Al Anfal’ (65) “O Prophet! Urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand”. ‘Al Baqara’ (216) “Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know”… (193) “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors”. ‘Al Tawba’ (14) “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people”… (123) “O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard [against evil]”. ‘Al Fath’ (16) “Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited [to fight] against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment”.

Those are some more examples, showing that the Qur’an itself, urge all Muslims to fight, kill, and terrorize the rest of the world.

Those verses, came after Islam became strong enough, to fight others, and those verses, replaced all the peaceful ones, which were in the Qur’an, while Islam was weak. This means that whenever a Muslim uses a verse of the Qur’an, which promotes peace, remember, that those verses were replaced by the killing verses, and this is what is known in Islam, by ‘Al nasekh walmansoukh’, which is the thing that destroys the routes of Islam, (this issue will be discussed later in this research.)

Now, let’s view Mohamed killing men with no war. He killed someone called ‘Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf’, this killing story was mentioned in five hundred ninety eight ‘Sunny’, Islamic books. One of those is ‘Sahih Al Bukhary’ part 4, page 1481; in the ‘Sheaa’s’ books, this story was mentioned, one thousand six hundred thirty three times. One of those ‘Derasar Fe Welayat Al Faqieh’, part 3, page 320. This man was a Jew from ‘Bany Al Nadir’ and he was saying improper poems about Mohamed; Mohamed announced, that he is looking for someone to kill him, because he is hurting God, and his prophet. Two men volunteered to do the job, ‘Mohamed Ibn Moslemah,’ and ‘Aba Na’elah,’ (his brother from breastfeeding,) and others went with them. Mohamed gave them permission to say whatever lies they want, to accomplish their mission. They went to him, in a full moon night. His brother from breastfeeding, was with them, so he can deceive the man, and ease their mission. ‘Aba Na’ela,’ and ‘Kaab,’ sat talking, and saying poems, and then asked him to dismiss everybody, except himself, and his family, pretending that he had something secret, that he wanted to tell him about. He started complaining about their war with Mohamed, and his people, the man answered his brother, that he was talking about the same issue previously. ‘Aba Na’ela’ told his brother, that he has some people with him who shared his same (lie) opinion, and they want to buy some food from him. He also told him, that they don’t have money, and that they were going to give him weapons, in exchange for the food. The man agreed to that deal, (he told him that the payment was going to be, by exchanging weapons for food, so the man will not get suspicious, when seeing weapons with the people.) The people went, and told Mohamed about the plan, so he accepted it, and told them, God bless you, and assist your plan to succeed. They went to the man, and carried on the mission, as planned. The man stayed with them for about an hour, then, they asked him to go somewhere else with them, and continue their talks. He agreed, and went with them, and when they were far enough, from his place, they killed the man. They went back to Mohamed, who spent that night praying, and when they reached there they screamed ‘Allah Akbar’ and Mohamed did too.

The ‘Serah’ books, are filled with similar stories, for other people, who were assassinated by Mohamed, and his followers, for all reasons, which, if it was in our days, it would have been protected by the human rights, and the freedom of speech.

Mohamed and the woman

Mohamed’s thoughts about women, came in his ‘Hadith’ as following:

“Women are lesser mind, and religion” ‘Al Bukhaty’ part 1, page 116. “God preferred men over women because of their minds”, ‘Tafsier Al Baawty’ part 1, page 422. He prohibited women from living in rooms, being thought how to read, and write, The only thing, they were allowed to learn Is, ‘surat Al Nour’ form Al Qur’an ‘Kanz Al Omal fi Sonan Al Awual’ part 16, page 158. He ordered men, to tell them no often, because yes, encourages them to ask for more. ‘Oyoon Al Akhbar by Al Dinory’ part one, page 395. He mentioned that hell was created for women. ‘Tarikh Madinat Demashq by Ibn Hebat Allah’ part 65, page 221, and that they are the dumbest of dumb. He also made the woman equivalent to the dog, and the donkey, as it came in ‘Mosnad Al Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal’ part 2, page 2992, in ‘Sahih Ibn Habban’ part 6, page 446, and in ‘Sahih Al Bukhary’ part 1, page 192. He also compared her to the pig, the sheep, the cow, and the camel, and other animals.

This is what Mohamed thought of women, and this is what Muslims are claiming, that Islam gave women a very high rank in the society.

Remember, that I always give examples for the point, and not covering all of the facts, I want to discuss, to cut the story short, and make this research within the reasonable size.

Even the Qur’an, doesn’t have much respect to women, ‘Al Nusaa’ (34) “Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and [as to] those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.”

All these insults came out after his first wife, ‘Khadiga’ died. He would never be able to say such things, while she was alive. The reason is that ‘Khadiga’ was a powerful, rich woman, whom Mohamed married, while he was young, poor, and powerless; she gave him, with this marriage, what he lacked. He also, couldn’t have any other woman than her, while she was alive. What a person this man was!

Also in legacy, men are superior over women, ‘Al Nisaa’ (11) “Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and [only] his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after [the payment of] a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.”

The sinner Mohamed

I will use the Qur’an to prove that Mohamed was a sinner, and he wished for those sins to be forgiven, and that sin was not taken out of his nature, till his death; and finally, Mohamed wishing God Mercy for him, so he can be accepted in heaven.

The Qur’an in ‘Ghafer’ (55) “Therefore be patient; surely the promise of Allah is true; and ask protection for your fault and sing the praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.” In ‘Mohamed’ (19) “So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding.” In ‘Al Fath’ (2) “That Allah may forgive your community their past faults and those to follow and complete His favor to you and keep you on a right way”. That are some examples of Mohamed being a sinner, and was asking God for mercy. “

As for not taking sin out of his nature, Al Qur’an says in ‘Al Insherah’ (1) “Have We not expanded for you your breast, (2) And taken off from you your burden, (3) Which pressed heavily upon your back (4) And exalted for you your esteem?”

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  • Public Discussion (179)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
larrrs

Really a great article GOES and thank you for you willingness to share. It seems that from your illustrations, and other former Muslims that I have read and heard, that the truly radical Muslims , indeed are the ones who do not hold to a strict interpretation of the Qur'an. How many Muslims would you estimate, hold to a fundamentalists view of the Qur'an, in you homeland?

  • 12 votes
#1 - Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:34 PM EDT
kpr37

Great article. I missed it,did not see it until it showed up on my conversion tracker

One of those women, which he got married to, was ‘Aaisha’, who was nine years old, when he married her, while he was fifty three.

One of the women in his life,who is often times over looked is Hadrat Safia (various spellings in Islamic texts)hadith sahih Bukhari, records the event in some detail. and Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat rasul allah" records the murder, and torture of her husband, before the "marriage"

only in a deeply inverted reality, or a state of such submission,it clings to the razors edge of delusions can any thinking human except that rape is the same as marriage.

Narrated Anas: The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet .The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'.

Sahih Bukhari 5:59:512

if you scroll-down, you will find Hadrat Safia. the Jewish woman, he raped ,after seeing to the murder of her entire family. Encyclopaedia of Islam this was a prophet with NO morals.Only a man with deep need to feed his darker human desires.Humans were playthings,and nothing more to be used,abused and killed when convenient.

  • 13 votes
#1.1 - Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:04 PM EDT
Goes

kpr37

Thank you very much for the valuable addition. Such a person cannot be chosen by GOD for prophesy.

  • 10 votes
#1.2 - Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:23 AM EDT
kpr37

I think I've read that, you read Arabic ?

have you read, or are you familiar with the book Kitab Alfawaed and it's hadiths

I have been looking for an on-line English link

  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:44 AM EDT
bluearcher

Excellent article!

A pleasingly different format in regards to the breakdown and analysis of terms within the Koran.

  • 9 votes
#1.4 - Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:03 AM EDT
Goes

kpr37

Let me know any more details regarding the author of the book, and I'll do my best finding a link to its translation. And if not I can help you translate what you need.

  • 8 votes
#1.5 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:00 AM EDT
kpr37

Mohamed was a bisexual person. He also had sex with a dead woman.

hadiths referancing the above quote, can be found within the book ? I have read.

I however, have never seen a direct link to the source.

I am interested in, if what I've read is correct.

الرئيسية - مؤسسة الريان للطباعة ...

Translate this page

Kitab AlTaibeen Min Ashab Sayed AlMursaleen الكاتب: إبن قدامة المقدسي ... AlFawaed الكاتب: الإمام ابن قيم الجوزية

alrayanpub.com/default.asp?TypeID=14&status=books · Cached page
Book repentant of SID senders (r)
Kitab AlTaibeen Min Ashab Sayed AlMursaleen
Author: Ibn qudaamah al-Maqdisi
Pages: 80
Price: $ 1.50
Cover type: cover
Size: 20 cm X 14 cm

  • 9 votes
#1.6 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:44 AM EDT
Goes

kpr37

Being bisexual is having strange relation with a man called Zaher. The story came in (Al sirah Al halabeya, by Ibn Hisham, part 3 page 441)m and (sonan al bayhaqy al knobra, part 10 page 248)

here is a link to the book on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Life-Muhammad-I-Ishaq/dp/0196360331

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=143204177962

As for the sleeping with a dead woman it came in the following book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanz_al-Ummal

Sorry couldn't find direct links to the books, so you can read them directly in English. This is one of their ways, not to translate Arabic serah books that will show the real prophet.

  • 8 votes
#1.7 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:23 AM EDT
kpr37

I went looking for the video that I heard about the book in. But it seems most videos made by father Zakaria are removed.I went looking for some resent info on him and found this. Free speech is dead in the west, if Islam is the topic.It is sad really it is.

http://www.coptsunited.com/Details.php?I=171&A=1326

The renowned Coptic Christian priest Father Zakaria Botros was scheduled to speak in Vienna tonight, but the atmosphere created by Muslim threats was such the event had to cancelled.

Below is the press release sent out by the Wiener Akademikerbund concerning this unfortunate turn of events. Many thanks to JLH for the translation:

Concerning: Cancellation of Presentation by Pater Zakaria

Dear Friends!

Last week, with the greatest joy and in expectation of a courageous confrontation of the problems surrounding Islam, the promises of multiculturalism and diversity as well as the erosion of our value system, we invited you to a lecture/presentation with the Coptic scholar. Islam researcher and charismatic Christian missionary, Father Zakaria Botros.

After meticulous preparation and with Father Zakaria anticipating his first public appearance in Europe, it is with a heavy heart that we must cancel the event, which was scheduled for Thursday, May 6, 2010 at 7:00 PM.

For reasons of numerous Islamic threats of violence and intolerable pressure upon our oriental Christian friends, insistence upon holding the event would be not only risky, but absolutely irresponsible.

We are saddened to discover that — in an allegedly free country such as Austria, and despite precautions taken by the authorities in a serious and professional manner — it is no longer possible to pursue critical clarity and tell the truth.

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:04 AM EDT
mork1from1ork

WOW.

  • 8 votes
#1.9 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:33 AM EDT
Goes

kpr37

This man is one of the most wanted men on Islamic agenda, they will reward his killer 50m. He is the one responsible for converting millions of Muslims in the Middle East to Christianity. Not one of Arab Muslim clerics was able to give any answer to the subjects he brought up, all they could do is cursing the man, and asking Muslims not to watch his videos.

He is also the one, from whom I got most of my knowledge about the Islamic issues. GOD bless him.

  • 9 votes
#1.10 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:38 AM EDT
kpr37

WOW.

he also has a 50 MILLION DOLLAR bounty on his head

as I remember he's living in America now. he is extremely well informed, and a powerfull speaker. And he never makes a claim with out sourcing it. What book ? who wrote it ? when they wrote it, and how much authority it carries with the Ummah . I can understand why, he is so hated, it is difficult, if not impossible, to refute the truth.

  • 9 votes
#1.11 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:45 AM EDT
Goes

Yes, 50 Millions.

No one knows, or should know where he lives, this man is hated more than you can ever imagine. As you said he also documents his arguments with the most authentic sources, and it very common that books he uses to reference are confiscated from the markets. People in the Middle East are now trying to refute even sonnah because of him, but what about the Qur'an?! You cannot imagine the feat from this man among Arab clerics.

  • 9 votes
#1.12 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:00 PM EDT
kpr37

The Prophetic Career of Mohammad by Ali dashti you might find the FREE online book interesting

THE CHANGE IN MOHAMMAD'S

PERSONALITY

Unimportant or seemingly unimportant events have often changed the course of history. They had decisive effects, for example, on the careers of Napoleon and Hitler.

The Prophet Mohammad's emigration to Yathreb was seemingly a minor local affair, but actually the start of a great transformation of Arab fortunes and world history. The ensuing developments provide a wide field of study for scholars seeking to ascertain the causes, correlations, and latent social factors.

Of all these problems, perhaps the most interesting and certainly the most striking is the change of the personality of one of the great makers of history. In this particular case, change of personality is an unsatisfactory term; emergence of Mohammad's inner self would be a more nearly accurate description. The hejra started a great historical transformation, but also followed from {P# 80} a transformation of Mohammad's personality which requires meticulous psychological and spiritual analysis.

Mohammad was devout and free from the vices of his time. He pictured the end of the world and the day of judgement as near at hand. With his thoughts fixed on the hereafter, he implored his Meccan compatriots to revere the Lord of the Universe, and condemned violence, injustice, hedonism, and neglect of the poor. Like Jesus, he was full of compassion. After the move to Madina, however, he became a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword, and a scheming founder of a state. A Messiah was transformed into a David. A man who had lived for more than twenty years with one wife became inordinately fond of women.

  • 8 votes
#1.13 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:06 PM EDT
Goes

Thank you for the link. Let me direct you to one of my links, and there you will find something surprising about Mohamed's Father.

http://goes.newsvine.com/_news/2010/09/27/5188451-who-is-the-prophet-mohameds-father

  • 7 votes
#1.14 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:30 PM EDT
Goes

Millions of them, but have nothing in their power yet.

  • 8 votes
#1.15 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:33 PM EDT
larrrs

Father Pater Zakaria

he also has a 50 MILLION DOLLAR bounty on his head

Truth has a strange way of earning the ire of evil. Sounds like we need to be sending as many prayers, good karma/thoughts as we can, his direction. I wonder how involved the US Sate Dept is in his protection? It seems that his message would be invaluable in the fight.

  • 9 votes
#1.16 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:47 PM EDT
Goes

Here is a link to his wevsite

http://www.islam-christianity.net/

  • 7 votes
#1.17 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:56 PM EDT
larrrs

That link provides many, many important resources that can be downloaded free; thank you GOES. I was unable to actually get any of the videos to work though as I think I am linking to them wrong.

  • 7 votes
#1.18 - Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:09 PM EDT
Goes

All his work is for free. He was broadcasting from a satellite channel in Cyprus named Life (Al Hayar) TV. All of the sudden he stopped working with this channel, and started a project on having his own. A couple of days ago he announced in one of his lectures in one of the countries, that life channel was under a serious threat, if it didn't stop his lectures from being broadcasted, and that was the reason why, he stopped using it, and now staring his own channel, and facing all the risks alone. That channel was broadcasting in Arabic, and was reachable in the Middle East, which caused a major problem to Islam, and resulted in converting millions of Arab Muslims, as I mentioned before.

Now Arab Muslims, are waking up, and leaving Islam, when non Arabs are falling in Islam's trap, and it is our mission to spread the word, and let them wake up too, for their own salvation from this virus, and for us to be safe from its danger.

  • 9 votes
#1.19 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:12 AM EDT
larrrs

Now Arab Muslims, are waking up, and leaving Islam, when non Arabs are falling in Islam's trap, and it is our mission to spread the word, and let them wake up too,

What a strange and wild world we live in...I never thought that I would see the day when Arab Christians are working a mission field in the USA; whatever though, I am thankful.

  • 8 votes
#1.20 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:43 PM EDT
Terry Falcon

Goes. Thank you for fascinating article as usual. This is the first time I heard anybody saying anything about Mohammed. He's a first class psychotic child molesting bloodthirsty hypocrite who's only power started with a womans money. How does a low life like that gains so many followers? He sounds to me like Satan incarnate! Reminds me of something I read in the bible, the book of Revelations. Could it be possible that he was the beast? Satan rules the earth for 1000 years. Now when was it that Mohammed died?

  • 2 votes
#1.21 - Thu Feb 3, 2011 11:57 PM EST
Goes

I believe he is the beast, remember people having his sign on their foreheads, as well as buying and selling using his name.

  • 2 votes
#1.22 - Fri Feb 4, 2011 7:13 AM EST
Terry Falcon

Yep, that's Gotta be him then! God help us all! But at least on the good side we know that god will prevail over evil in the end of times.

  • 2 votes
#1.23 - Sat Feb 5, 2011 2:26 AM EST
Reply
Socrates1

Why do you think so many people follow? Isn't it always easier to find a way to rationalize your sin away?

  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:20 AM EDT
WILDWONDERFUL

Very good post , please post this again in a few weeks. People need to know this

  • 9 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:19 AM EDT
Hider5000

Jaw-dropping.

If you look into to Judaism the same way, you'll find it is no less disturbing. If those two want to kill each other off be my guest.

The Mormons and the Scientoligists are pretty whacky too -- but I think most of us knew that.

  • 2 votes
#4 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:11 AM EDT
Socrates1

Yes, everytime someone brings up the Jews, I immediately begin to discuss how bad the Mormans are.

  • 7 votes
#4.1 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:17 AM EDT
Hider5000

You have to look at it in perspective though. The Mormons might be more screwed up; it's debatable, but they certainly are no where near as large as the Jews or the Muslisms.

  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:24 AM EDT
Socrates1

no where near as large as the Jews or the Muslisms.

And there you have it, regardless of what you may think about the Jews, they are nowhere near as large a group as the Muslims. It is a matter of perspective. If there were 5 Muslims running around in the world who would care? If there was an Islamic State in Northwest Pakistan, or even Afganistan under the old Taliban, who would care? That is the central point of the entire issue. Numbers and ability to project power which is why your original statement was really, pardon me for saying, irrelevent.

Just for fun I looked it up.

There are roughly the same number of Jews and Latter-day Saints in the world today, some twelve to fourteen million in each case—a point of obvious similarity.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=17&num=2&id=589

  • 10 votes
#4.3 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:52 AM EDT
Socrates1

Couldn't help myself....

total Muslim Population in 2009 is 1.66 billion

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/

See any problems, even if they all had the exact same set of beliefs?

  • 8 votes
#4.4 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:59 AM EDT
Hider5000

I don't trust the statistics. They are obviously fabricated by Jews. ;)

  • 2 votes
#4.5 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:56 PM EDT
larrrs

I don't trust the statistics. They are obviously fabricated by Jews. ;)

....ahhh..of course..and along I have been thinking it was the Bilderbergers, UFO's, the Illuminati, Walmart, Zionist Poodles,McDonalds,...

...thanks for setting me straight.

  • 8 votes
#4.6 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:49 PM EDT
Hider5000

It isn't simply a matter of numbers though. They operate differently. They have different goals. They project their power in different ways. The Muslims want to convert us by force. The Jews (same as the Scientologists in this sense) want to subjugate us through economic dominance. Numbers alone do not indicate a good representation of their influence.

    #4.7 - Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:33 PM EDT
    mork1from1ork

    Hider,

    someone, at sometime, somewhere, said something, about the use, somehow

    of tin foil head-wraps.

    if YOU know something, please tell....

    aside from that, do you believe that "World Dominance" will come down to a

    CONFLICT between the Scientologists and The Jews??!!

    John Travolta and Tom Cruise versus Adam Sandler and Jeff Goldblum??!!

    • 8 votes
    #4.8 - Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:58 PM EDT
    Hider5000

    They both have the same agenda more or less. I was just pointing out that similarity. Other than that I wouldn't say there was any connection.

    I'm not talking about information from conspiracy theorists. Go straight to the source. Read the Talmud a little bit. Do like the seeder of this article did with the Quran.

    The information about Scientology is everywhere, so you probably already familiar with it unless you're living under a rock somewhere.

    • 2 votes
    #4.9 - Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:04 PM EDT
    Socrates1

    Let me put it to you this way...when my two year old clenchs her hands and shakes her head and says no it can sometimes be dute. The same beviour is not quite a accebable when its a band of twenty year old men with knifes in their hands.

    • 6 votes
    #4.10 - Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:38 PM EDT
    Goes

    Hider5000

    There is a big difference between Jews, and Muslims in the domination strategies, if we can even accept that there is a Jewish domination agenda.

    The Islamic agenda is fundamental in the Islamic theology, this is not at all the case with the Jews, nothing in the Torah urges, or even encourages Jews to try spreading their faith and dominate other faiths. On the contrary the theme in the Torah is to limit the faith to only Jews if possible.

    If there is any kind of domination agenda done by the Jews, it has nothing to do with Judaism, it will have to do with a race ambition, nothing more. On the other hand, Islam's domination is a core of the Islamic faith, and Islam's God urges Muslims to work as hard as possible in achieving the (omma) goal.

    • 6 votes
    #4.11 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:53 AM EDT
    Hider5000

    Have you researched them the same way you you have done with the Muslims? If you had, I'm not sure you would come to that same conclusion.

    They're a big club. They're supremacists. They believe they are God's chosen and the rest of us are essentially animals that have no rights. If a Jew commits any crime against a Gentile there is no punishment under Jewish law.

    I don't know why you're arguing with me about it. They're the ones who wrote it.

      #4.12 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:20 AM EDT
      kpr37

      If a Jew commits any crime against a Gentile there is no punishment under Jewish law.

      source ?

      • 7 votes
      #4.13 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:30 AM EDT
      Goes

      Hider5000

      I am only telling you that even if what you are saying is correct, and you can prove it, it still cannot be compared to Islam in regards to the source of this behavior, which leads you away from the topic of my article.

      The article is originally speaking about Mohamed's (Islam's prophet) morals, and it had nothing to do with the Jews, or Judaism. If you want to make a comparison that is relevant to the subject, you can compare between Mohamed, and Moses.

      In all my researches, I speak about sources, which are either Islam, or its prophet. I don't speak about a religion followers; the behavior of followers may contradict the teaching of the religion.

      • 6 votes
      #4.14 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:45 AM EDT
      mork1from1ork

      Hider, and kpr,

      I ALSO heard from the SAME source that Hider used,

      Scientologists, are the NEW "Chosen People",

      and it was WRITTEN(somewhere), by the Prophet, L. Ron Hubbard, that

      ALL will come to Scientology, and ALL will pay the "gizmo" tax,

      until they reach the *8th level of "Clear".

      • 4 votes
      #4.15 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:26 AM EDT
      Hider5000

      Yep, God's chosen people. Ever heard of The Holy Bible before? Ever visit a hotel? It says it right in there. You know crazy me and my whacky far-out sources...

      @kpr37

      There's a million of them. Here's one: http://www.iahushua.com/JQ/factsR4.html

        #4.16 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:23 PM EDT
        kpr37

        There's a million of them.

        antisemitic web sites, no bettor than the protocols of the elders of Zion. yes,I agree

        do you understand the term "primary source material" you see if I want too comment on the pediphile-prophet (Mohammad's), lovely young "child bride".I include a link. the University of Southern California is a wonderful resource, as it has Islamic as well as Jewish religious text.

      • The Talmud (partial)
      • The Complete Talmud (downloadable in PDF form)
      • English Translations of the Hebrew Bible
      • The Bible in Arabic
      • If a Jew commits any crime against a Gentile there is no punishment under Jewish law.

        if you wish too make such a claim,source it with an "ACCREDITED" Jewish source. Otherwise you only look foolish.and bigoted

        Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

        Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64 you see having sex after the age of 50, with a nine year old child makes you a pedophile, whether or not you claim prophet-hood or not. The truth can not be bigoted,it's just an UNPLEASANT TRUTH.

        • 7 votes
        #4.17 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:51 PM EDT
        Socrates1

        Hider, and here I thought we had put things to rest and you were "kidding" in 4.5.

        I, on the other hand am serious. Regardless of the aims of the Jews, and/or Mormans, etc. the numbers and actions of certain Muslims show me that they could represent the primary threat to people such as myself.

        • 7 votes
        #4.18 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:28 PM EDT
        Hider5000

        Well there you go, buddy. You found the primary source material. What's the issue then? Why so argumenative and uncivil about it? Are you like aggresively irrational in the head, or do you just like being a tough guy on the internet?

        • 2 votes
        #4.19 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:22 PM EDT
        Socrates1

        Your follow-up suggested otherwise. What's agressive about that?

        • 8 votes
        #4.20 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:52 PM EDT
        kpr37

        Are you like aggresively irrational in the head, or do you just like being a tough guy on the internet?

        hi jdoyle ? is that you

        • 7 votes
        #4.21 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:55 PM EDT
        mork1from1ork

        Hider,

        I just read some of the sites that you use for reference, the sites that YOU gave;

        So let me ask You,

        The Khazars and the Turks are related, as your sites SAY, and obviously YOU believe,

        So Maybe when Erdogan is voted out and the Secularists are back in Power,

        Turkey and Israel,will FORM even Stronger BONDS, than they had before,

        with half of Israel's Zionist Population, being "Turkish Khazars".

        ****

        Hider, what about the Other Half of Israel's Zionist population, the Mizrahi Jews (?),

        The Mizrahi Jews that were the Original Israelites, are HALF the Israeli population of Jews,

        the Mizrahi, the Original Israelites that went to Persia and Iraq and Yemen, 2700 years ago,

        THEY, the ORIGINAL ISRAELITES are ALSO Back in Israel, fighting for their Country.

        Hider, I am NOT being either argumentative OR uncivil, JUST Curious.

        Whadaya think?!

        • 6 votes
        #4.22 - Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:04 PM EDT
        Hider5000

        He asked for a source on that one sentence, so I referenced that site for it's passages from the Talmud. The man mentioned on that site was a Jew himself originally, and he had a degree in theology, so I'm sure he knew a thing or two on the subject.

        Oddly, it appears that website is down now. Clearly that information is being suppressed by those who don't wish for us to know it.[/Dale Gribble]

        • 1 vote
        #4.23 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 8:33 AM EDT
        mork1from1ork

        Hider,

        I heard somewhere, that the guy that gave the Passages from the Talmud,

        was PRETENDING to be a Jew, and he did NOT have any Degree from anywhere, in Theology.

        Whaddaya THINK??!!

        Do YOU think that he Might have been LYING???!!!

        • 5 votes
        #4.24 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 9:37 AM EDT
        Hider5000

        Whatever you say, Rabbi.

          #4.25 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 9:53 AM EDT
          mork1from1ork

          Hider,

          Jesus WAS a Rabbi.

          I am NOT.

          • 4 votes
          #4.26 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 11:02 AM EDT
          Hider5000

          On the contrary. Jesus was a carpenter. He ate organic foods.

            #4.27 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 12:21 PM EDT
            mork1from1ork

            Hider,

            don't be hasty, in YOUR assumptions.

            ****

            Jesus, was "The Son Of GOD",

            Born into this World,

            for a PURPOSE.

            ****

            Jesus as a Man, was indeed a Carpenter,

            and INDEED, men and women gazed on him,

            and called unto him,

            and listened to him,

            and Respected THIS "Man",

            this Rabbi, Jesus.

            ****

            Hider, YOU are RIGHT about the Organic foods.

            • 5 votes
            #4.28 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 12:46 PM EDT
            Hider5000

            You can't blaspheme

            the Jewish church

            and be considered

            a Rabbi

            ****

            Not now

            Not in the 1st century AD

            Not at all

            ****

            I hope this post

            gives you

            a warm and fuzzy

            greeting card feeling

              #4.29 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 12:56 PM EDT
              Goes

              Guys, can you please go back to topic!

              • 6 votes
              #4.30 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 12:58 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Goes, and Hider,

              I can "go back to topic",

              and answer Hider at the EXACT SAME TIME.

              ****

              A Muslim TODAY,

              CAN Call Mohanmmad and the First Caliph's,

              as AGGRESSIVE and VIOLENT Men,

              and NOT MEN who REALLY KNOW,

              that Islam is a Religion of Peace.

              Hider, SEE what I said,

              a TRUE and PEACEFUL Muslim,

              CAN CRITICIZE,

              and Hider, as YOU say,

              CAN "BLASPHEME" the Muslim "Church",

              and that Muslim,

              WOULD BE a REAL Muslim; A REAL MUSLIM!!!!

              A Muslim who BELIEVES that Islam is the Religion of PEACE;

              NOT WAR or Pedophilia, or beheadings,

              or Rape of Widows whose husbands you Have Killed.

              Hider,

              I HOPE this Post gives YOU UNDERSTANDING!

              and, of course, "the warm fuzzies".

              • 6 votes
              #4.31 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:18 PM EDT
              Goes

              mork1from1ork

              Thank you for your post, and for going back to topic.

              • 6 votes
              #4.32 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 1:34 PM EDT
              Hider5000

              Jesus was not A rabbi by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how many comparisons or "warm fuzzies" you make out of it. I'd go back on topic, but it appears logic has no place in this conversation, and people would rather hear pretty lies than the ugly truth. So why bother?

              • 1 vote
              #4.33 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 2:25 PM EDT
              Goes

              Hider5000

              Thank you for going back to topic.

              Jesus has no relation to this topic whatsoever, we are basically talking about Mohamed, and his behavior here, you can as I mentioned before, compare him to another prophet such as Moses, but Christ, this wouldn't be fair neither for Christ, nor Mohamed, the comparison is not at all valid between Christ, and any other prophet.

              • 6 votes
              #4.34 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Goes, and Hider,

              Moses was a Prophet; and a Man with human weaknesses.

              Mohammad was a Prophet; and a Man with MANY human weaknesses.

              Jesus was the Son of GOD, Created as a PERFECT Man.

              And YOU are Right, Goes,

              there Is NOT ANY Prophet that can Compare to the Son of GOD.

              • 6 votes
              #4.35 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
              Goes

              mork1from1ork

              And this is exactly why I said, if any comparison is to be made, it cannot include Jesus, he is totally unique, and involving him in any comparison will be unfair.

              As for Mohamed being a prophet, this is what we are trying to understand here, could he really be a prophet with all these strange characteristics, or it is impossible for such a man to be chosen by GOD to become a prophet.

              • 6 votes
              #4.36 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 3:36 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Goes,

              Nothing is "impossible".

              Hitler, for 25 years, was basically a living Prophet.

              IF, the Nazi's had Succeeded in their "mission" of Conguest,

              and If the Third Reich, were to have lasted, 1000 years,

              The Nazi Movement, and the Nazi's of TODAY, MIGHT number as Many as the numbers in Islam,

              and Hitler MIGHT have BEEN a Bigger Prophet, TODAY, than Mohammad.

              Being a GOOD Man is NOT Necessarily what a Prophet IS.

              Being an Angel, Also does NOT necessarily make the Angel, a "GOOD" Angel,

              Lucifer was THE Arch-Angel to GOD's Heaven.

              and Even though Lucifer IS the Devil NOW,

              Lucifer. is STILL an Angel.

              Mohammad MAY have been ALL the things that are claimed against him,

              murderer, pedophile, deceiver, and bigot,

              BUT, even with ALL this KRAP,

              he is STILL a Prophet.

              ANOTHER topic might have BEEN,

              for WHOM (?!) is Mohammad a Prophet?

              The Angel that Mohammad had spoken to,

              might NOT have been the Angel, Gabriel!

              ****

              BUT, GOD works in Mysterious Ways.

              What GOD WILL's

              Inshallah

              • 6 votes
              #4.37 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 5:02 PM EDT
              Goes

              mork1from1ork

              Hitler, for 25 years, was basically a living Prophet.

              Did he ever claim himself to be a prophet from GOD?!

              Mohammad.
              Being a GOOD Man is NOT Necessarily what a Prophet IS.

              Did you know any other prophet who possessed such bad morals other than him?!

              Being an Angel, Also does NOT necessarily make the Angel, a "GOOD" Angel,

              You are correct about that, Satin is an angel, and he is the one who is behind Islam.

              BUT, even with ALL this KRAP, he is STILL a Prophet.

              Was he the only choice, and GOD had to pick him up?! Nothing could have made GOD make such a bad choice.

              for WHOM (?!) is Mohammad a Prophet?

              At this point, I understand what you mean, but being guided by Satin, will that still be called prophecy?! And I also have other articles mentioning who gave him his Quyr'an.

              The Angel that Mohammad had spoken to, might NOT have been the Angel, Gabriel!

              Absolutely right, as I mentioned above, I discussed this in another article. Who gave the Qur'an to Mohamed?

              BUT, GOD works in Mysterious Ways.What GOD WILL's

              This is correct, but our history tells us that Mohamed could not be one of these methods.

              • 7 votes
              #4.38 - Mon Oct 4, 2010 10:11 AM EDT
              Reply
              Socrates1

              I then seeded an article for my own amusement which suggests that the number of radical muslims, which is projected to be a minimum of 1 per cent of the total population of Muslims, is a greater number then the total number of either Mormans or Jews. I believe I mentioned it before, but still it puts things in perspective.

              Radical Islam, in and of itself, as a separate religion, is larger than many other world religions. I'm going to research it.

              • 7 votes
              Reply#5 - Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:53 PM EDT
              Dave the Voter 2

              I wonder what the difference is between a moderate and a radical Muslim.

              I have seen the poll results that suggest that a radical Muslim believes he must kill unbelievers, and a moderate is anything short of that.

              I dislike radical Muslims because they feel obligated to obey the literal meaning of the Koran...but I think they are well contained by the Patriot Act.

              Muslim jihad violence is not a real problem in this country. We tap all Muslim phones, computers and bank accounts, and we arrest dozens of them a year.. and we haven't been getting jihad deaths since that army psychiatrist guy.

              That said, moderate Islam is at least as racist than the Ku Klux Klan.

              I don't like the Ku Klux Klan... I only begrudgingly allow that they are Constitutionally protected. I think it's great that protesters show up in great numbers and shout them down...even though the Klan hasn't been violent in decades.

              I do not know why Moderate Islam should not be protested for its bigotry and sexism.

              Korans should be burned, prophets should be drawn. Imams should be mocked and Dearborn should be retaken.

              In case you don't know about Dearborn...and you should... It's been taken by moderate Muslims.

              Christian missionaries have been arrested for preaching... there has been a concerted effort to keep news out of Dearborn from the media.

              Like the guy who was arrested (by out of town cops) in the park with black pajamas, a mask and a fully automatic AK47.

              ...That story took five days to become a small article in the local paper.

              Anyway..congratulations America..and I mean that... We have essentially neutralized the radicals... now we have the problem of moderates.

              • 6 votes
              Reply#6 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 11:12 AM EDT
              Socrates1

              radical muslims age generally willing to do anything to move the process forward faster. moderates are willing to follow along and help out as needed.

              • 9 votes
              Reply#7 - Fri Oct 1, 2010 10:39 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Is this your blog or is this article plagiarised?

              • 5 votes
              Reply#8 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:52 AM EDT
              Goes

              You are correct, it is my blog!

              • 11 votes
              #8.1 - Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:11 AM EDT
              larrrs

              Thanks for the link Dennis

              :~)

              • 8 votes
              #8.2 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:46 PM EDT
              Reply
              Kryon

              ya quite a controversial man..so much that even his enemies trusted their wealth with Him.NO#1 most influential person in the world changing an ignorant bunch of Arabs into the most sophisticated civilization of that time.Prophet of the most non racist religion of that time.even black servants(Bilal) were elected to call the Muslims to prayer.There's no black mosques or white mosques.A religion that prompted A bangladeshi muslim to save a jewish couple from about 14 christian radicals in a new york subway.Interesting...!!!

              • 1 vote
              #9 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:48 AM EDT
              Goes

              even his enemies trusted their wealth with Him

              Yeah, and this is why he was taking 1/5the of the booty!

              NO#1 most influential person in the world changing an ignorant bunch of Arabs into the most sophisticated civilization of that time.

              NO#1 most influential person in the world changing an ignorant bunch of Arabs into the most sophisticated conquest civilization of that time.

              Prophet of the most non racist religion of that time.even black servants(Bilal) were elected to call the Muslims to prayer.

              He wanted all the man power he can get, to build his army, and empire (omma).

              A religion that prompted A bangladeshi muslim to save a jewish couple from about 14 christian radicals in a new york subway.Interesting...!!!

              If he knew his faith well enough, he wouldn't save infidels, or maybe he is still a better person than his prophet.

              After all, this has nothing to do, and cannot erase the crimes committed by Muhammad, which I stated in my article.

              • 7 votes
              #9.1 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:34 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Goes,

              I had a discussion with Dennis, previously, concerning the Turkish/Kurdish Anatolian Alevi Sect of Islam; and it was DIFFERENT than the Islam of the Sunni and the Shia, in MAJOR WAYS, in that:

              there are NO Mosques, as such, but they had "Cems", or Meeting Houses, AND,

              Men and Women Worshipped and "Met" TOGETHER, with NO seperation of sexes, and they SANG and DANCED and played Musical Instruments together; and they had NO philosophy of Jihad. Maybe this is a "More Evolved" form of Islam; Could YOU, Goes, ACCEPT that form?!

              Unfortunately the Turkish Sunni Majority, aside from the Turkish Secularists, think that the Alevi, who number from 15% to 20%, of the Religious Muslims in Turkey, think of the Alevi Sect Muslims as Heretics.

              Goes, I understand and KNOW that YOU are a Christian, that was born in a Muslim country, and consequent of this, you had a hard time, growng up, because you were looked upon as a "kaffir", by the Majority Muslims; BUT,

              Can YOU embrace, as a Christian, a Muslim Sect, that is DIFFERENT than the Muslim Sects that surrounded YOU as you grew up?

              Goes, before you answer, give a quick study of the Alevi Sect,; and, I am NOT Sure, but I believe Dennis likes this Very "Different" Muslim Sect, also. NO Violence, NO Jihad, NO forced Conversion....

              In other Words, can YOU look past the Man, Mohammad, and look at a "Revised" Islam??

              • 3 votes
              #9.2 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:55 PM EDT
              Goes

              mork1from1ork

              OK. if this is the case, and you see that it is a better version of Islam, and even overlooks its prophet Muhammad. Wouldn't it be better to call it some other name other than Islam, and clear it up from all what is related to this name over the past.

              And who would be the prophet of this sect, and how it started, while it is contradicting Islam's core beliefs.

              As you said it yourself, all Muslims are looking to them as Heretics, which is no different than infidels, and they have to be fought too.

              I will never accept Islam as it is, but I love my Muslim brothers, and really hope I can be of any benefit in waking them up, and showing them the ugliness of Islam.

              • 5 votes
              #9.3 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:18 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Goes,

              I(me) am asking YOU to google Alevi Sect of Islam; don't read EVERYTHING, just read enough to familiarize yourself.

              Obviously, there will be a Worldwide Religious War,

              IF,

              Some Religions continue to be aggressive with "taking over the World.

              Let us hope that will NOT be the case, until "End-of-Times".

              Goes...?!....the Alevi Sect....?....would you read a little....?

              • 3 votes
              #9.4 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:18 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              You're wasting your time, mork.

              This guy seems to have his mind made up about all things Islam, even though he's not even close to the mark. Typical stuff.

              • 2 votes
              #9.5 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:43 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              I hope that you are wrong. ANY of us can come to a New Understanding.

              I do know that Goes, previously, as a Christian, in a Muslim Land, had a hard time, and I'm sure that we both understand.

              I am asking though, of Goes, if there is a *possibility* in His mind that Islam can become a More Tolerant Religion; More accepting of others ideas of GOD and Worship of HIM (?).

              Dennis, and Goes, and Myself; DO we all believe that,

              A Religion, whatever the Religion, that has at it's CORE Belief, the "Conversion" of OTHERS, by ANY means of FORCE, including "second class" Status, has NOT REACHED any "PERFECTION of Belief", and Definately is NOT in its *Final Form*, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or Pagan ??

              • 3 votes
              #9.6 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:42 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              A Religion, whatever the Religion, that has at it's CORE Belief, the "Conversion" of OTHERS, by ANY means of FORCE, including "second class" Status, has NOT REACHED any "PERFECTION of Belief", and Definately is NOT in its *Final Form*, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, or Pagan ??

              I can't speak of the Hindu religion, as I'm not well enough informed, but as for the Abrahamic religions...only Christianity has an evangelical doctrine. Judaism does not try to convert anyone, and Islam strictly forbids it. Muslims are commended to answer questions, but to never proselytize.

              Anyone who says that Jews or Muslims are bent on converting people is either grossly misinformed or just flat-out lying.

              • 3 votes
              #9.7 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:52 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              I ask this, but I ask, Without the desire to argue;

              One of The Original meanings of 'Taqiyya", I am told, was for the use of a Shia Muslim, to be told to a Sunni Muslim "Mob", who, when asked if he were Sunni or Shia, would answer, "I am a Sunni". THAT "lie" was meant ot escape the possible harm that the Sunni Mob might do to a Shia. This form of Taqiyya was necessary because the OTHERS, the Sunni, wanted ALL to be what they were; Sunni. ...Dennis, isn't THAT, the THREAT of HARM, a form of Threat, to promote Conversion ??!

              I also read, when I talked to Fada, a while back, that the Egyptian Authorities, Religious or Government, were "UPSET" that the Iranians were trying to convert Sunni youth to Shia, what with the Strength of their Anti-Israel Stance, as opposed to the Egyptian Government, which has a Peace Treaty with Israel.

              Dennis, I've also seen Muslims on the Vine talk about European Conversions.

              • 5 votes
              #9.8 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:10 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              This form of Taqiyya was necessary because the OTHERS, the Sunni, wanted ALL to be what they were; Sunni. ...Dennis, isn't THAT, the THREAT of HARM, a form of Threat, to promote Conversion ??!

              First, let me clear up a few misconceptions here. That's not 'one of the forms' of taqiyya...it's the meaning of the word. The only form. Also, it has nothing to do with the Sunni.

              Taqiyya is simply a Shi'a doctrine that states that a believer can deny his faith in order to save his life, or that of another, because Allah knows the truth in his heart. Simple as that.

              If someone is going to kill you because you're Shi'a...pretend you're not Shi'a. It has nothing to do with conversion at all.

              I also read, when I talked to Fada, a while back, that the Egyptian Authorities, Religious or Government, were "UPSET" that the Iranians were trying to convert Sunni youth to Shia, what with the Strength of their Anti-Israel Stance, as opposed to the Egyptian Government, which has a Peace Treaty with Israel.

              I wouldn't be surprised if the Iranian government was trying to recruit people to their brand of Islamism. Doing so, though, is against the tenets of the faith.

              Dennis, I've also seen Muslims on the Vine talk about European Conversions.

              Yes, but not forced conversions, willful conversions. Many Europeans have converted to Islam, as have some Americans. It's their choice, they're free to convert if they want to, to whatever religion they choose.

              The bottom line, though, is that the Qur'an clearly states "There is no compulsion in religion." Muslims are not allowed to compel people to convert in any way. They have to come to Islam of their own volition.

              • 3 votes
              #9.9 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:30 PM EDT
              Socrates1

              The waste of time is not acknowledging that the Alevi sect is not considered to be part of Islam by most, if not all, other Muslims. Certainly the Alevi's have something to offer, if they can stay alive. According to my Alevi friends they are considered worse than Jews. Take that for what it's worth when considering how they fit into Islam.

              Basically take all of Islam out of Islam and I guess I would than have to agree that Islam could be a religion of peace.

              • 7 votes
              #9.10 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:58 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Certainly the Alevi's have something to offer, if they can stay alive. According to my Alevi friends they are considered worse than Jews.

              Socrates, my wife Is Alevi. I know many, many Alevis here in Turkey. Don't know where your friends are from, but it sure as hell isn't Turkey.

              • 3 votes
              #9.11 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:21 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Socrates, Very Interesting, and worthy of more discussion

              Dennis, pretty powerful Statement. I would have to allow a plus in Turkeys favor, since I KNOW that if any "negative" should befall your wife, her being an Alevi among the Sunni, YOU would NOT stand quiet.

              Dennis, Turkey is aware, I'm sure, that there is an extremely high probability of a short, but INTENSE Regional War, between Israel and Iran and Syria and Lebanon.

              I propose to you that Saudi Arabia IS Aware of this and hopes that Both Sides are Shaken; BOTH; the Shia and the Jews, not being on their "A" list for parties.

              If this high "probability" of War does happen, Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia and the Emirates and Yemen, will stay out, but Turkey has been "PRESS TVing" and et cetera, that Turkey stands behind Iran. Any thoughts or ideas?!

              • 6 votes
              #9.12 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:12 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Turkey trades with Iran...but Turkey is a member of NATO, as well as a military ally of the US and Israel.

              Turkey will do what it does best. Try to remain neutral until it's no longer possible, then jump in on the side of their allies with everything they've got. They did it in WW2, Korea, Vietnam...and they'll do it again.

              Except for one thing. There won't be a war. At this point, it's just saber-rattling. Both Israel and Iran are making all sorts of noise, but it's mostly for domestic consumption. Neither side is stupid enough to split the whole region wide open.

              • 4 votes
              #9.13 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:34 PM EDT
              Bif Biffleston

              The bottom line, though, is that the Qur'an clearly states "There is no compulsion in religion."

              That is your bottom line as taken from the Qur'an, correct? Great, so we agree that Islam IS defined by the messages in the Qur'an. With that out of the way, please explain why this Surah from the same Qur'an is not equally definitive:

              Surah 8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

              I can find MANY more just like it. How about you?

              • 6 votes
              #9.14 - Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:35 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              Before I get into why, that there will "Most Probably" be a Regional War, with Israel and Iran and Lebanon and Syria, I must first predicate with a statement that I know, that YOU know, to be True.

              Wars ALWAYS HAPPEN. There have been TWO World Wars partially fought in the Middle East in the last hundred years; there have been five or so regional Wars with Israel on one side, there has been one Regional War involving Turkey and Greece, there has been one Regional War involving Iran and Iraq, there has been and there have been several ongoing fire-fights involving Turks and Kurds, Saudi Sunni and Shia Tribesmen, and Iranian Persians and at least three of their Provinces that have a Majority of Sunni Kurdish or Arabic or Turkmen inhabitants.

              SO, Dennis, I will Start with, Wars in THAT Region, a)DID happen, b)DO happen, & c)WILL happen.

              NOW, as to WHY!

              Two things are happening right NOW that give "Very Good Odds", for a War to happen:

              Israel, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, will NOT allow a Nuke to be in the possession of the Current Iranian Regime. War will come when agents communicate the "completion" of an Iranian Nuke.

              The Other "Cause" for War will be the the Iranian Missiles in over 100 Lebanese Villages; ALL aimed at Tel Aviv, with HezbAllah fingers on the "fire" button. War will come if the Lebanese do NOT dismantle and remove these Missiles; these Missiles to be removed before a "TIME LIMIT" has passed, an amount of time that I am not privy to.

              Dennis, consider the past Israeli/Arab Wars. When the "talk, has been talked", then Dennis, always and every time, the "walk, has been walked".

              If I were an Israeli leader, caring for the welfare of my people and the Life of my Country, I would NEVER allow thousands of precise Missiles, held by an avowed "Enemy to the Death", and aimed at my Major City and Military installations. And DEFINITELY NOT TO STAY past a certain, although unspecified TIME LIMIT.

              A) The HezbAllah removes these Missiles, OR, B) Israel removes these Missiles;

              and choice B) is called War.

              The Same with Iran with a Nuke,

              Dennis, you can NOT be really serious about, "NO WAR HAPPENING", with the Regions ABUNDANT History of Wars.

              • 3 votes
              #9.15 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:07 AM EDT
              Socrates1

              Dennis, if your wife is Alevi and you're not Muslim that suggests a difference in custom right there.

              On the next point, I have already mentioned, at other times, that Turkey, due to its unique status as the seat of the Ottoman Empire, does view the world somewhat differently from other Muslim Countries. Of course that doesn't negate the Armenian Genocide and the heavy handed treatment of the Orthodox Church. In any event, Pakistan is a certainly an example where Alevi's are considered worse than infidels by many.

              • 5 votes
              #9.16 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:52 AM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              I can find MANY more just like it. How about you?

              Sure. I've actually read the Qur'an and know what that means. Read the whole Sura, will you? It's about a specific battle against a specific enemy.

              Israel, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, will NOT allow a Nuke to be in the possession of the Current Iranian Regime. War will come when agents communicate the "completion" of an Iranian Nuke.

              Hell, neither will anyone else. The only difference is that Israel seems to be sure that is what's happening. No one else is.

              The Other "Cause" for War will be the the Iranian Missiles in over 100 Lebanese Villages; ALL aimed at Tel Aviv, with HezbAllah fingers on the "fire" button.

              Oh, I have no doubt that there will continue to be conflicts between Israel and forces in Lebanon.

              Dennis, you can NOT be really serious about, "NO WAR HAPPENING", with the Regions ABUNDANT History of Wars.

              I was talking about war between Israel and Iran.

              Dennis, if your wife is Alevi and you're not Muslim that suggests a difference in custom right there.

              For whom? I don't get your point.

              In any event, Pakistan is a certainly an example where Alevi's are considered worse than infidels by many.

              Oh, so you're talking about Pakistan? Hell, I have no idea how the Alevi are treated in Pakistan, though even if that's true, it doesn't justify your statement, which was general in scope and not limited to just Pakistan.

              Hell, I'm surprised to hear that there are Alevi in Pakistan, since it's an uniquely Turkish form of Islam.

              • 2 votes
              #9.17 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:15 AM EDT
              Bif Biffleston

              Sure. I've actually read the Qur'an and know what that means. Read the whole Sura, will you? It's about a specific battle against a specific enemy.

              I have read the entire Surah in several translations and that is not true. and I challenge you to prove your claim!

              Your passage "There is no compulsion in religion." applied uniquely to Jews in Medina and was abrogated. The passage was overridden by subsequent Koranic verses (such as 9:73: "O Prophet! Struggle against the unbelievers and hypocrites and be harsh with them").

              • 6 votes
              #9.18 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:53 AM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Abrogated, my ass.

              Read the Qur'an. Read it from beginning to end. It's a narrative - read it as such.

              You guys...you pull a sentence out of a book and think you know what the book is about.

              • 1 vote
              #9.19 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:07 PM EDT
              Goes

              Dennis P McCann

              So why don't you use authentic tafsier to enlighten us, instead of this meaningless attitude?!

              • 6 votes
              #9.20 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:54 PM EDT
              Bif Biffleston

              You proclaim a lot, but offer little more than your very strong opinion, flavored with very obvious contempt for others opinions and statements.

              "Abrogate my ass" doesn't qualify as an answer, just an unwillingness to back up what you claim I am too ignorant to understand. Abrigation is a valid topic and one you repeatedly choose to ignore.

              I have never heard of the Qur'an described as a book. I would think many would instead describe the Qur'an as a rambling, unorganized collections of revelations 'revealed' to Muhammad over a period of years.

              You guys...you pull a sentence out of a book and think you know what the book is about.

              Since it was you who "pulled a sentence out of a book" to begin this dialog, I find it hard to understand why you feel your own criticism doesn't reflect on you as well.

              Read the Qur'an. Read it from beginning to end. It's a narrative - read it as such.

              And after doing this as you claim, you still feel "There is no compulsion in religion." is the dominant message Muhammad was sharing with his followers considering the dozens of revelations that clearly command otherwise? Possibly it is you who needs to re-read the Qur'an.

              • 4 votes
              #9.21 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:27 PM EDT
              Socrates1

              Dennis, generally speaking inter-faith marriages are not condoned. Not that Islam is the only religion that feels that way. Do you attend Friday prayers?

              • 2 votes
              #9.22 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:41 PM EDT
              Reply
              Goes

              mork1from1ork

              I read about Alevi as you asked me, you are right, I would never have a problem with it. as it is a peaceful, fair belief that is not imposing itself on any body else.

              But let me ask you, wouldn't be better for this belief, to free itself from the bad name of Islam, exactly as the Baha'y faith did?! They also believe that Muhammad was a prophet, and that the Qur'an was a revelation from God, but in addition to that as per Aly for the Alevis that have Bahaa El Din. Why don't Alevi purifies itself from the Islam's name, which is associated with hate, and violence?!

              Dennis P McCann

              This guy seems to have his mind made up about all things Islam, even though he's not even close to the mark. Typical stuff.

              I didn't claim myself to be an expert in everything Islam, and didn't want to learn anything new. At first I was confused, and I thought the Turkish Alevi sect was similar to the Syrian version, but when I read about it, I found it is not related.

              Second your claim that Islam is not to be imposed on others, you got this one completely wrong. Let me first forward you to an article of mine quoting some of the Qur'an verses urging Muslims to spread Islam by force, Words of the Qur'an and Muhammad (war).

              Now let me support this order by facts from history, if the Qur'an was talking about specifics, and not generalizing the command regardless of location, and time, why did the Islamic conquests happened? Why along history up till this day non Muslims, are forced to convert to Islam in the Muslim world? As for Europe, and America, force cannot yet be used for converting people.

              Oh by the way, before trying to quote Qur'anic verses trying to prove your point, that Islam is not imposing itself on the whole world, you need to find me verses from the Medani Qur'an, and not the Mecci, as we both know about 9All nasekh wal mansoukh) the abrogated, and abrogating.

              As for deception in Islam (taqueya), please read the following article, Words of the Qur'an and Muhammad (Deception)

              • 5 votes
              #10 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:42 AM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Why don't Alevi purifies itself from the Islam's name, which is associated with hate, and violence?!

              Because they know that those who associate Islam with hate and violence are wrong.

              Second your claim that Islam is not to be imposed on others, you got this one completely wrong. Let me first forward you to an article of mine quoting some of the Qur'an verses urging Muslims to spread Islam by force, Words of the Qur'an and Muhammad (war).

              Yeah, no thanks, because,. well...I've already read it, and frankly, I'm tired of arguing the same things over and over. You're not the first guy to quote the Qur'an, assign a completely incorrect meaning to the quote, and then use the quote to justify your interpretation...and you won't be the last.

              Beware of analyses of Quranic verses that leave out all the relative, though inconvenient, background.

              • 1 vote
              #10.1 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:50 AM EDT
              Goes

              Dennis P McCann

              Yeah, no thanks, because,. well...I've already read it, and frankly, I'm tired of arguing the same things over and over. You're not the first guy to quote the Qur'an, assign a completely incorrect meaning to the quote, and then use the quote to justify your interpretation...and you won't be the last.

              Once again, why don't you give us, and authentic tafsier explaining what is it that is wrong we understood about the Qur'an?!

              • 7 votes
              #10.2 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:01 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Because I've been fighting this Spenceristic nonsense for years, and frankly, I'm tired of arguing the same points, over and over, with people who aren't going to change their minds anyway.

              Nothing personal. You're just another in a long line.

              • 3 votes
              #10.3 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:04 PM EDT
              Goes

              As for giving us the truth about Qur'an, let me show you how I do it.

              Qur'an urges Muslims to force non believers (non Muslims) to convert or die, or pay heavy taxes with submission.

              I will use the thee most authentic version of tafsier explainng each of the Qur'anic verses I will use. They are Al jalalyn, Ibn Abbas, and Ibn Kathier.

              Qur'an:8:39

              "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."

              Al jalalyn

              And fight them until sedition, idolatry, is, exists, no more and religion is all for God, alone, none other being worshipped; then if they desist, from unbelief, surely God sees what they do, and will requite them for it.

              Ibn Abbas

              (And fight them) i.e. the disbelievers of Mecca (until persecution) disbelief, idolatry, idol worship and fighting against Muhammad (pbuh) in the Sacred Precinct (is no more, and religion) in the Sacred Precinct as well as worship (is all for Allah) such that none remains except the Religion of Islam. (But if they cease) disbelief, idolatry, idol worship and fighting the Prophet (pbuh) (then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do) of good and evil.

              Ibn Kathier

              (38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease, their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).) (39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone. But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.) (40. And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your protector -- (what) an excellent protector and (what) an excellent helper!)

              Qur'an:8:60

              "And make ready against the infidels all of the power you can, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy. And whatever you spend in Allah's Cause shall be repaid unto you." [Another translation reads:] "Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah, and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah's Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you."

              Al Jalalyn

              (Make ready for them) for the Banu Qurayzah as well as for others (all thou canst of force) of arms (and of horses tethered) of female tethered horses which are prepared for fighting, (that thereby ye may dismay) that you may strike fear by means of these horses in (the enemy of Allah) with regard to religion (and your enemy) by killing them, (and others beside them) besides the Banu Qurayzah and all the Arabs; it is also said that this is a reference to the disbelievers among the jinn (whom you know not) you do not know their number. (Allah knoweth them) Allah knows their number. (Whatsoever) of wealth (you spend in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah, whether it is arms or horses (it will be repaid to you in full) its reward will be repaid to you, none of it will be diminished, (and ye will not be wronged) your reward will not be diminished.

              Ibn Abbas

              (Make ready for them) for the Banu Qurayzah as well as for others (all thou canst of force) of arms (and of horses tethered) of female tethered horses which are prepared for fighting, (that thereby ye may dismay) that you may strike fear by means of these horses in (the enemy of Allah) with regard to religion (and your enemy) by killing them, (and others beside them) besides the Banu Qurayzah and all the Arabs; it is also said that this is a reference to the disbelievers among the jinn (whom you know not) you do not know their number. (Allah knoweth them) Allah knows their number. (Whatsoever) of wealth (you spend in the way of Allah) in obedience of Allah, whether it is arms or horses (it will be repaid to you in full) its reward will be repaid to you, none of it will be diminished, (and ye will not be wronged) your reward will not be diminished.

              Ibn Kathier

              (59. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from Allah's punishment).) (60. And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them, whom you may not know but whom Allah does know. And whatever you shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly.)

              Here is just a couple of examples, showing that Qur'an urges Muslims to fight non Muslims, not only of the occasions that you mentioned, but as it was very well understood, that this order passed time, and place.

              Al jalalyn, and ibn Abbas sources.

              Ibn Kathier

              • 7 votes
              #10.4 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:22 PM EDT
              Bif Biffleston

              Because I've been fighting this Spenceristic nonsense for years, and frankly, I'm tired of arguing the same points, over and over, with people who aren't going to change their minds anyway.

              This also implies you yourself have not had any change of mind. Yet you use this fact against others as some sort of confirmation of ignorance. Interesting.

              Spenceristic nonsense

              How does labeling ALL people who disagree with you in this manner strengthen your claim to superior knowledge?

              Sorry for the duplicate post. I mistakenly placed it first in the wrong area.

              • 7 votes
              #10.5 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:48 PM EDT
              Goes

              Bif Biffleston

              No problems, the other one will be deleted.

              • 6 votes
              #10.6 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:51 PM EDT
              Socrates1

              Dennis, Frankly as a party to some of the discussions you mention, perhaps taking the belief system of a small sect and suggesting that it is indicative of the theology of the entire religion is why you find yourself continuously discussing the same points. In short, you find yourself arguing both against Believers and non-Believers in suggesting that only you, and the Alevi's, know the true nature of Islam.

              Of course many of us feel the same way. The Koran is perfectly clear, as are the actions of the Prophet and his heirs. Why do we need to argue over the same issues over and over again?

              • 9 votes
              #10.7 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:53 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Goes. You've provided a single verse, from Sura 8, which discusses the Spoils of War, and a bunch of interpretations. You've then jumped to the conclusion that it's a command for all times, against all nonbelievers.

              What you didn't do is first analyze the Rules of War in Sura 5...which defines exactly who, when, where, and under what conditions the commands in the spoils of war apply to.

              If you really want to learn the Quran, you can't jump around, and rely on various interpretations of verses taken apart from the whole.

              Simply read the book from start to finish, and you'll see it differently. Context is key.

              • 4 votes
              #10.8 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:58 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              In short, you find yourself arguing both against Believers and non-Believers in suggesting that only you, and the Alevi's, know the true nature of Islam.

              Socrates, no, that's not true at all. It's the methodology that's the problem here. The Quran is not a list, it's a narrative. A verse on it's own is meaningless. Hell, a Sura on it's own is meaningless.

              And that's the methodology I always see...lists of verses, removed from context. That's the tactic that's used by people like Spencer, Geller, Pipes, et al.

              The only way to understand the Quran straight through. Not one of those anti-Islam sites provides a start to finish analysis of the Quran. Every single one cites the same handful of verses, over and over. Ask yourself why.

              You're looking at a few trees. There's a forest there.

              • 3 votes
              #10.9 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:04 PM EDT
              Goes

              Dennis P McCann

              You started to get confused here, it was me who presented a couple of verses from Sura 8, and their tafsiers. The tafsier clearly supports the argument that Islam imposes its beliefs on others.

              These tafsiers were written by the greatest Islamic scholars, they of course read the whole book, and of course they understand it better than you, and me, and yet they reached the conclusion that we all reached, that Islam is a totalitarian, aggressive belief, that has to be imposed on all mankind.

              As Socrates said, the problem is that you can only see one version of Islam, which is truly way far from what Islam was really meant to be, and it will be even unfair for the Turkish Alevi, to be related to the real Islam.

              The purpose of the two verses that I gave you, was only a very tiny example of how we can discuss this issue further, supporting our points of views, with authentic books that explains Islam, and its beliefs.

              • 8 votes
              #10.10 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:08 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              I will leave the "arguement" about the Peaceful and Non-Agressive Nature of (some sects of) Islam ,or (some sects of) Christianity, or (some sects of) Judaiism, or (some sects of) Hinduism, for others, at this time.

              I will speak to you, if you would, about the "High Probability" of the Coming War.

              Two Parts:

              I assume from your answer to "NOT Allowing" Iran to have a Nuke, you said, "Hell, Neither will anyone else". I ASSUME that you also mean Turkey will NOT allow Iran with a Nuke (?!). In any case, as I said Israel will NOT attack without verification on the completion of a Nuke. The capture of the Nuke is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to Israel, to "show" to the World the reason for the attack.

              The more immediate PROBABILITY of a War, is those thousands of Iranian Missiles in Lebanese Villages and Syrian Emplacements. HezbAllah HATES Israel. I will NOT say that the PKK Kurdish Seperatists in Kurdish Lands, HATE Turkey, but, I will ask YOU, Dennis, and I will ask you seriously to consider this; If the PKK were to acquire a considerable amount of Missiles from some supplier, and they were ALL aimed at Ankara and other Turkish cities,

              Dennis, ASSUMING that the PKK DID obtain these Missiles, and assuming that they haven't fired them (yet!), and the PKK was just "aiming" them only;

              WHAT would Turkey DO??!!

              • 6 votes
              #10.11 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:12 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              I assume from your answer to "NOT Allowing" Iran to have a Nuke, you said, "Hell, Neither will anyone else". I ASSUME that you also mean Turkey will NOT allow Iran with a Nuke (?!).

              Right.

              If the PKK were to acquire a considerable amount of Missiles from some supplier, and they were ALL aimed at Ankara and other Turkish cities,
              Dennis, ASSUMING that the PKK DID obtain these Missiles, and assuming that they haven't fired them (yet!), and the PKK was just "aiming" them only;

              Exactly what they are doing. The PKK is already heavily armed.

              • 3 votes
              #10.12 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:22 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              Please, I am asking of YOU a specific "what if".

              "Heavily armed", is NOT Missiles.

              Accurate Missiles with a LARGE Explosive Payload, AND DEFINITELY a Destructive weapon that can HIT Ankara.

              Dennis, if the PKK were to "obtain and aim" these thousands of Missiles at Ankara,

              "WHAT (?!) would Turkey DO ?!

              Would they Allow the PKK to keep them?!

              Would Turkey INSIST that they be removed?!

              Would Turkey attack the Installations, if the PKK did NOT remove the Missiles.

              Would YOU think that Israel will behave differently than Turkey, regarding Missile REMOVAL?!

              • 8 votes
              #10.13 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:02 PM EDT
              Socrates1

              Dennis, sadly I have read the Quran over and over in an attempt to change my views.

              • 7 votes
              #10.14 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:20 PM EDT
              larrrs

              I have come to the conclusion that I just can't; every time I try to talk about it somebody shows up and tells me how I don't get it or my understanding is feeble...I can't read on my own anymore I guess. Jeesh, didn't they start interpreting the Bible out of Latin a long, long time ago?

              • 7 votes
              #10.15 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:39 PM EDT
              Socrates1

              larrs, exactly. I have been told that my reading comprension is actually quite good and yet there seems to be this suggestion that the words I read do not mean what they mean. What's a person to do??

              • 8 votes
              #10.16 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:43 PM EDT
              Goes

              larrrs

              Socrates1

              Stop reading, or even thinking, and listen only to what you are told:) Kidding of course:))

              • 8 votes
              #10.17 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:50 PM EDT
              larrrs

              To be fair...perhaps that is part of the reason why the literacy rate is so low in many Islamic countries.

              • 7 votes
              #10.18 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:03 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Please, I am asking of YOU a specific "what if".

              "Heavily armed", is NOT Missiles. Accurate Missiles with a LARGE Explosive Payload, AND DEFINITELY a Destructive weapon that can HIT Ankara. Dennis, if the PKK were to "obtain and aim" these thousands of Missiles at Ankara,

              "WHAT (?!) would Turkey DO ?! Would they Allow the PKK to keep them?!Would Turkey INSIST that they be removed?! Would Turkey attack the Installations, if the PKK did NOT remove the Missiles.Would YOU think that Israel will behave differently than Turkey, regarding Missile REMOVAL?!

              Mork, Turkey is at war with the PKK. They routinely go after any arms they know of, or any bases they find.

              Now, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you're trying to draw a parallel between Turkey/PKK and Israel/Iran, there is none. Iran is a sovereign nation, the PKK is not.

              If you're drawing a parallel between Turkey/PKK and Israel/Hizb'allah... yeah, the situations aren't too dissimilar. Or at least, the PKK and Hizb'allah are comparable, in that they are both large, well organized, heavily armed terrorist groups.

              So what, specifically, are you asking?

              • 2 votes
              #10.19 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:55 PM EDT
              Reply
              Bif BifflestonDeleted
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              thank you.

              Yes, I AM posing the question, and putting forward the premise that Turkey versus the PKK and Israel versus the HezbAllah, are very similar situations; NOT exact, but similar.

              Under the heading: "Probability of a Regional Middle East War".

              Israel WILL destroy the Iranian Missiles that are currently placed in Lebanese Villages, IF they are not removed by Lebanon, within a certain space of time.

              I ask if you would agree that Turkey would DO the same, if the Missiles were in "PKK territory", and THOSE Missiles were aimed at Ankara ?!

              Basically, Dennis, it comes down to, would either Turkey or Israel, ACCEPT living under a CONSTANT THREAT of Multiple Missile attack of its Major populated Cities, at the whim of HezbAllah, or the PKK ??!!

              • 6 votes
              #12 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:30 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              No. Neither would, nor should they. If Hizb'allah again threatens Israel, I'm sure Israel will act against them. If The PKK ever stops acting against Turkey, Turkey will stop acting against them.

              The situations are actually very different, but the PKK and Hizb'allah are roughly comparable in size and strength.

              • 4 votes
              #12.1 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:55 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              Dennis,

              IF you are saying that the THREAT of those thousands of Iranian Missiles, aimed at Tel Aviv, in those hundred Lebanese Villages; the threat of a Massive Missile Barrage set off by HezbAllah, Can NOT be ACCEPTED by Israel; then, again we have either A) or B) happening. A) Lebanon REMOVES the Missiles themselves, or B) Israel REMOVES those Missiles.

              Dennis, do you envision HezbAllah removing the Missiles?!

              THOSE Missiles ARE a Definite Threat to Israel by their "declared" Enemy, HezbAllah.

              You are Right Dennis, the situations ARE different. The Kurds do NOT want to Destroy the Turkish Homeland.

              • 5 votes
              #12.2 - Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:20 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              It's a whole lot more complicated than that, mork, but suffice it to say that all sovereign nations have a right to defend themselves.

              • 2 votes
              #12.3 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:01 AM EDT
              larrrs

              The Kurds do NOT want to Destroy the Turkish Homeland.

              It's a whole lot more complicated than that, mork, but suffice it to say

              It's too complicated mork,

              ~~~please lay off.

              ;~/

              • 4 votes
              #12.4 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:20 AM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              No, larrrs. It's a completely different situation. The PKK, for instance, are Turkish citizens, and are based in Turkey. Hizb'allah is not Israeli, nor in Israel.

              There is no religious division between the Turks and the PKK. It's an argument about land, only. There is a religious component to the Israel/Hizb'allah conflict.

              I could go on, but I doubt you're listening.

              • 2 votes
              #12.5 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:46 AM EDT
              larrrs

              I could go on, but I doubt you're listening.

              You are correct...

              I have been following the conversation with a very bored eye. On a seed, about the morals of Mohamed, I'm laughing my ass off at you floundering around for some sorta purchase.

              I've seen many apologists whither in the face of truthful questioning and debate; Making a claim that an idea, or a scripture, or a history, is not fully understood. Said claim being made forfeit in the face of truth and substantiation.

              Dennis your barely dog-paddling in the current; I'd get our before high-rise.

              • 6 votes
              #12.6 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:58 AM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              Don't know what you've been reading, but I've simply been answering mork's questions.

              • 2 votes
              #12.7 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:01 AM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              larrrs,

              hey friend.

              Dennis and I were actually discussing the probability of a Regional War.

              Aside from the "dis-similarities" of Turkey and Israel,

              the SIMILARITIES are that Dennis and I agreed that neither Turkey nor Israel would ALLOW the situation of thousands of Missiles, held and aimed by a Mortal Enemy, to EXIST.

              If the PKK had them, Turkey would DESTROY them, and EQUALLY, if HezbAllah in Lebanon does NOT remove them, then Israel WILL.

              The Conclusion: A VERY HIGH Probability of an Israeli attack to DESTROY these HezbAllah Missiles in Lebanon; Regional War.

              • 2 votes
              #12.8 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:38 AM EDT
              Bif Biffleston

              Dennis and I were actually discussing the probability of a Regional War.

              A conversation he obviously prefers to tough questions and rebuttal directed his way on the topic of the teachings of Muhammad and the Qur'an.

              • 3 votes
              #12.9 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:05 PM EDT
              mork1from1ork

              "Mohammad and the Quran".

              I've been thinking that the MAIN REASON we are at odds with each other, is NOT, a 'long-dead man'.

              Whatever he WAS, it is NOT he, that is the cause of our current conflict. He was the cause of the conflicts in his Region, in his time.

              Whatever it is, that is written, is NOT the cause of this current conflict.

              The CAUSE of this current conflict is the interpretations of (some of) those who live, in what they THINK that he said, and the interpretations (of some), of what they THINK is written.

              If Dennis' and his wife's Alevi Sect, IS Islamic, and their interpretation of the the Qar'an, IS Islamic, and we all find that the Alevi Sect of Islam is Good and Honorable, with NO thought to Jihad or Waqf or Dhimmi or Israel; and NO thought about Israelis as Zionist "bad guys", then, if we find THAT to be the case, that the Alevi are the BEST of Islam, then,

              We should support the Alevi Sect, as the TRUE Islam.

              We MAY be LOUD in our Support of the Alevi and the Ba'Hai and ALL TRULY PEACEFUL Islamic Sects, and BE LOUD in our CONDEMNATION of the Interpretations of ALL the Religious Fanatic Sects of Islam.

              The Problem that we are having in OUR Condemnation of A$$WIPE Fanaticism in Islam, is that the "BLANKET" Condemnation brings forth the Charge of Islamophobia, and therefore the TRUTH of the Charge of Islamic A$$WIPERY, is LOST, when we Lump ALL of Islam together.

              I say, that the Fanatics can be fought better, with more public understanding, if we applaud the 'GOOD" Sects, separating them from the "Bad" Sects, the "West is Satanic" Sects.

              For instance, from what I've heard so far, I LIKE the Alevi Sect of Islam, while I abhor the FANATICS of the Wahabbi Sect, I HATE the Murderous Taliban Sect and al Qaeda Sect.

              NOT "Islamophobia"; just a Phobia against LIARS and MURDERERS!

              • 3 votes
              #12.10 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:01 PM EDT
              Dennis P McCann

              For instance, from what I've heard so far, I LIKE the Alevi Sect of Islam, while I abhor the FANATICS of the Wahabbi Sect, I HATE the Murderous Taliban Sect and al Qaeda Sect.

              al Qaida and the Taliban aren't sects. They are Wahabbists.

              mork, you should check into the Sufi, too. If the Alevi are the hippies of Islam, the Sufi are the Buddhists of Islam.

                #12.11 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:12 PM EDT
                mork1from1ork

                Dnnis,

                in that case, I abhor and HATE the Wahabbi Sect, in ALL of its manifestations!!

                I suppose "hippie" Alevis and "Buddhist" Sufis, are Powerless to STOP the "a$$wipe" Wahabbis, in whatever form, from doing their KRAP; the Krap that WE ALL are against?!!

                and Dennis, it is NOT Islamophobia, the REASON I am against that "Ground-Zero Dust Cloud Radius", Mosque/Convention Center. I am DEFINITELY AGAINST it being built with Saudi Wahabbi Money.

                • 3 votes
                #12.12 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:56 PM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                I suppose "hippie" Alevis and "Buddhist" Sufis, are Powerless to STOP the "a$$wipe" Wahabbis, in whatever form, from doing their KRAP; the Krap that WE ALL are against

                Imagine if Episcopaleans started doing something nuts. Would Methodists and Presbyterians be expected to stop them? Could they?

                and Dennis, it is NOT Islamophobia, the REASON I am against that "Ground-Zero Dust Cloud Radius", Mosque/Convention Center. I am DEFINITELY AGAINST it being built with Saudi Wahabbi Money.

                There's no proof that it is. And Imam Rauf, the guy who wants to build it? He's a Sufi.

                He's probably more opposed to the Wahabbi that you are.

                Oh, and by the way...what I mean by the Sufi being the "Buddhists" of Islam.... they're philosophers. Meditation is a big thing for them. Ever hear of Rumi? He was the founder of the Sufi Order.

                • 1 vote
                #12.13 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:59 PM EDT
                Socrates1

                Imagine if Episcopaleans started doing something nuts. Would Methodists and Presbyterians be expected to stop them?

                Yes.

                • 3 votes
                #12.14 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:49 PM EDT
                mork1from1ork

                Dennis,

                let us make this question first question VERY simple. If Imam Rauf is a True Sufi at heart, a "philosopher", then HE would NOT ACCEPT any Saudi Wahabbi money to build this Mosque.

                And Three additional questions, to you, please;

                First, If the Imam is WILLING to accept Wahabbi Money then he is a Wahabbi in Sufi clothing, and NOT to be Trusted. OR he could be a fool of a Sufi, if he accepts Wahabbi Money;

                Would you agree, Dennis?!

                Second, Do you think that it is okay for Saudi Wahabbi Money, to be used to build this Mosque/Community Center? The Saudi Wahabbi are NOT the type to give their Money without getting their Voice into the selection of Speakers, Teachers and Books and Thoughts & Ideas.

                Third, there WILL be a Caliph again. I believe that the Saud Family covets the MOST exalted Islamic position for their Family. Do you?

                AND I agree with Socrates on the question,"Should Good Christians DO SOMETHING about the actions of "BAD" Christians; "BAD" Christians that claim that they SPEAK for ALL Christians". I would EXPECT the SAME of Jews.

                • 4 votes
                #12.15 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:12 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                let us make this question first question VERY simple. If Imam Rauf is a True Sufi at heart, a "philosopher", then HE would NOT ACCEPT any Saudi Wahabbi money to build this Mosque.

                Right. And there's no reason to think that he has.

                • 3 votes
                #12.16 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:36 AM EDT
                mork1from1ork

                Dennis,

                I ask that ALL Records of contributions for this Mosque be OPEN to Inspection.

                What I WANT to see is contributions from INDIVIDUALS; Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Pagan, or Secular,

                I do not want to SEE Millions of dollars coming from a single contributor; and IF I DO, I WILL WANT to KNOW from WHOM it comes!!!!

                Dennis, Saudi Wahabbi Subjects of the Fabulously Rich, and FANATICALLY Zealous Saudi Wahabbi King, CAME to the States and MURDERED our People and DESTROYED our Towers; I will NEVER ALLOW these Wahabbi's to EVER BUILD a ten million dollar monument, in the area that they committed their perfidy; The Wahabbi ARE LIARS, and are killers and are destroyers of our people and our symbols, of OUR Ways.

                Dennis, it is my thought that the Wahabbi MIND is bent on World Conquest, for their CAUSE. THEY are the "Islamic Enemy".

                • 2 votes
                #12.17 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:05 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                I ask that ALL Records of contributions for this Mosque be OPEN to Inspection.

                Sounds fair to me, but then, I'm not the developers being asked to do what others aren't asked to do. Are we going to require that all religious organizations reveal the sources of their funding every time they want to build something? Mosque, church, synagogue, community center, whatever?

                Dennis, it is my thought that the Wahabbi MIND is bent on World Conquest, for their CAUSE. THEY are the "Islamic Enemy".

                Eh, I don't know. I think they're just bent on getting foreign influence out of their lands, and unfortunately think that allows them to do whatever they want to achieve that.

                • 2 votes
                #12.18 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:15 AM EDT
                mork1from1ork

                Dennis,

                No, we won't ask ALL Religious Organizations to reveal from where their Money comes; we will ONLY inspect the books, when we do NOT WANT Money coming from Mass Murderers of OUR People. Their Money and therefore, THEIR influence. Wahabbi Money equals Wahabbi Influence.

                YES, Dennis, they do want foreign influence GONE; but, not ONLY from THEIR own Land; they want it GONE from the World. The ONLY Influence that they want ANYWHERE, is THEIRS! It is their Wahabbi Version of a "Wet Dream". Fanaticism, IS FANATICISM.

                • 3 votes
                #12.19 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:32 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                No, we won't ask ALL Religious Organizations to reveal from where their Money comes;

                Then we can't ask them either. That would be a violation of the First Amendment.

                YES, Dennis, they do want foreign influence GONE; but, not ONLY from THEIR own Land; they want it GONE from the World.

                There is no evidence whatsoever that that's true, and their stated positions contradict that.

                • 1 vote
                #12.20 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:55 AM EDT
                mork1from1ork

                Dennis,

                as YOU indicated, the Al Qaeda IS Wahabbi and the Taliban IS Wahabbi, and the terrorist Murderers of the 9/11 attack against us, were Wahabbi;

                and I do believe that MOST Muslims are NOT perfidious Murderers as the Wahabbi OBVIOUSLY ARE!!

                Dennis, there IS a Rising tide of ANTI-Islamic feeling that IS GROWING in the U.S. and Europe,

                SO, I will ask YOU,

                what would YOU have happen(?!),

                a RISING HATE of ALL Muslims, starting with No Minarets in Switzerland, and a BAN on Burqa's in France, and Anti-Muslim "No Citizenship" in Germany, and Islamaphobia in the Netherlands, and MORE European Countries and More Americans, Growing MORE Anti-Islam, *Anti "ALL" Islam*, known as Islamaphobia,

                OR,

                Would we prefer to throw the REAL DOGS to the Ground, and Keep the Remainder of Islam as NON-Enemies, even as Friends to the West, an Islam that means the West NO HARM.

                The Wahabbi ARE the so-called "small percentage of Muslims", that are Violent Murderers, and it is THEY that are the DOGS. Would YOU protect THEM with your words of "there is No EVIDENCE" and try to Protect these MURDEROUS DOGS with, "We should NOT SEE the books for their donations", of INFLUENCE BUYING into this Mosque/Community Center.

                Dennis, in short, to put it in a "nutshell",

                THERE ARE Islamic Murderous DOGS that have attacked the U.S. and Europe, and SOME here in the West would have it, that ALL Islam are the DOGS,

                I suggest to YOU, wouldn't it be BETTER for East/West Relations, if WE NAME the REAL DOGS???!!!

                I say, WE should NAME the DOGS, and NOT lump the Alevi or the Sufi or ANY Peaceful Muslims, with them.

                I will name the DOGS, because I DO like your wife's Alevi Sect, and I do NOT want to Include her People with the DOGS.

                The Wahabbi ARE the DOGS!!!

                Let us NAME them as DOGS, and let us go after them, the REAL DOGS!!!!

                • 2 votes
                #12.21 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:37 PM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                Yeah, mork. The Wahabbi are bat@!$%# crazy fundamentalists. Hell, I've been saying that for years.

                But about the Community Center thing... different point entirely. First Amendment says the government can't ask them to disclose their funding if they don't ask everyone to do the same. Far as I know, they've already met all local, state, and federal requirements, so that's it.

                • 1 vote
                #12.22 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 12:39 AM EDT
                mork1from1ork

                Dennis,

                NOPE, NOT IT.

                The Wahabbi ARE the ENEMY that *IS* the Islam that WE HATE. The Islam that are the KILLERS.

                Not Your Wife's Alevi Sect and Undoubtedly NOT MOST other Muslims.

                BUT Everybody KNOWS and says that there ARE a Percentage of ALL Muslims that ARE, as YOU say, "bat @!$%# Crazy". These Wahabbi ARE the DOGS that give Islam that BAD NAME; these Wahabbi DOGS are the ones that are CAUSING this RISING WAVE of Islamaphobia in the West.

                To PREVENT the Wahabbi DOGS from giving their Ten Millions to Build (and CONTROL) this "Maybe" Mosque/Community Center, I would Propose that ALL Organizations DISCLOSE their Funding. An Addendum to the First Amendment will DO, and WILL PASS in OUR House and Senate.

                I GUARANTEE to YOU Dennis, that the MAJORITY of Americans will NOT Permit this Mosque/Community Center to be Built with Wahabbi Money.

                The Wahabbi cut off heads of living people, and video their cowardly murders, to show ALL of us.

                The Wahabbi suicide/murder those that they think to slay, at THEIR Whim.

                THEY ARE DOGS, and if they do NOT back OFF, they WILL Receive what they have Already given; DEATH.

                Did YOU KNOW, Dennis, that the Land that we now Know as Saudi Arabia, was ACTUALLY in the Possession of the Hashemite Family, and that the Great- Grandfather of Abdullah II, of Jordan, was the Caliph for a time, after the Turks Dropped the Role of Caliph, after five hundred years.

                It was the DOG Wahabbi Saud Family that attacked and defeated the Rightful Rulers of the Land, the Hashemite Family.

                I say @!$%# the DOG Saud Family; these, as you say, "bat @!$%# crazy" Wahabbi Fanatics, and when they do MORE of their dirty deeds, which they WILL, let us help to depose them, in "a tit for a tat", and allow the RIGHTFUL Rulers of this Land Regain their Land; the Hashemite Family.

                • 2 votes
                #12.23 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 2:17 AM EDT
                Reply
                samenslow

                There are Muslims who believe the Prophet Mohamed's only value was that God chose to use him to dictate the Koran.

                There are probably as many different types of Muslims as there are Christians. I believe Omar Khayyam said, if drunk enough, he could refute all 74 that he know of some 700 years ago. In Egypt there are constant conflicts between Wahabbists and Sufi's especially in areas like Aswan that have large Nubian populations (Sufi).

                In the Middle East, people identify with religion much more than in the West. The Ottomans did not rule over various nationalities. They ruled over populations separated by religions. One was a Muslim Ottoman, a Christian Ottoman, a Jewish Ottoman, etc. There were, for example, no modern Egyptians until 1922/3. To this day these divisions play an important part in politics. That is why, for example, no one is fighting for Iraq. They are fighting for their religious group or ethnic group. Nationhood is still not a fully understood term.

                Both the Koran and Bible have terrible things in them. But various times produce different interpretations of these works. There are big differences in the lessons of Christianity as taught by say Kahil Gibran and Cotton Mather. There are great differences between Islam as seen by Rumi and Mulla Omar. In fact, Rumi started his work in reaction to the harsh Islam practiced in Afganistan.

                Economics and the security one feels in his life will affect how one views religion. Hash time tend to produce a more fundamentalist understanding while a more philosophical or mystical interpretation of religious books will prosper in good times.

                I can speak only from personal experience, but I live in Egypt. I find most Muslims here trying to get by, to have a good life for themselves and their families. Among the poor, religion tends to be more fundamentalist. The rich are more liberal (as a rule). Local customs are, by many, believed to be part of religion. For example, if you want to shame a man in Aswan, shave off his moustache. He will not be seen in public until he grows it back.

                Both Christians and Muslims believe they have a duty to convert all others to their true faith. If you are a Christian think how you would or have felt if a Muslim came to your door and gave you a copy of the Koran and wanted to tell you about Islam. Muslims feel the same way when the situation is reversed.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#13 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:13 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                I can speak only from personal experience, but I live in Egypt. I find most Muslims here trying to get by, to have a good life for themselves and their families. Among the poor, religion tends to be more fundamentalist. The rich are more liberal (as a rule).

                Same here in Turkey, and probably everywhere else.

                • 3 votes
                #13.1 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:39 AM EDT
                Bif Biffleston

                If you are a Christian think how you would or have felt if a Muslim came to your door and gave you a copy of the Koran and wanted to tell you about Islam. Muslims feel the same way when the situation is reversed.

                If that was all that Islam called for, I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest.

                I'm sure Muslims are just trying to get by and have a good life like us in the US. My concerns are not about the Muslim pursuit of a peaceful life, but those who are not Muslims. Can you say the same for them?

                • 2 votes
                #13.2 - Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:42 PM EDT
                Goes

                samenslow

                And what about Muslims saying all the time on the media, mosques, and on personal levels that Christians are infidels, and the bible is abrogated, and they're all going to hell?

                • 3 votes
                #13.3 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:47 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                And what about Muslims saying all the time on the media, mosques, and on personal levels that Christians are infidels, and the bible is abrogated, and they're all going to hell?

                Muslims aren't saying that. Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes are saying that Muslims are saying that. Terror groups say stuff like that to justify their causes...but Muslims aren't saying that.

                • 1 vote
                #13.4 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:56 AM EDT
                samenslow

                And what about Christians saying all the time on the media, churches, and on a personal level that Muslims are non-believers, the Koran a pack of lies, and they are all going to hell.

                Muslims and Christians are, I believe, the only two religions that have the requirement to convert others to their faith (Church of Later Day Saints being Christian). This is true even though neither group can define what a "Christian" or "Muslim" actually believe.

                The tirades you mention given by either side do no good. In fact, they help prove the other sides point that the other is bigoted and closed minded.

                • 1 vote
                #13.5 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:03 AM EDT
                Goes

                Dennis P McCann

                Muslims aren't saying that. Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes are saying that Muslims are saying that. Terror groups say stuff like that to justify their causes...but Muslims aren't saying that.

                This proves that you don't really understand what you are talking about, and never been exposed to the Muslims world, any Muslim can tell you so in your face.

                samenslow

                Are you trying to tell me, that Christians in Egypt can tell you this in your face, as any Muslim can, and what Christian media are you talking about?! Does Christianity has any media representation in Egypt?!

                • 4 votes
                #13.6 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:33 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                This proves that you don't really understand what you are talking about, and never been exposed to the Muslims world, any Muslim can tell you so in your face.

                Dude, I live in Turkey.

                • 1 vote
                #13.7 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:35 AM EDT
                samenslow

                I was talking about US media; but I can assure you that the Copts get their message out also.

                I do not know too many places wher telling people to go to Hell gets a warm reception. But here people may believe the other si going o Hell,but would never personally say it because to do so would be impolite. Now, the clerics are a different matter. They tend to be Hellfire and brimstone. Copts are much quieter, but they have off shore radio stations too.

                In no way am I implying Copts are treated equally. They are not.

                • 2 votes
                #13.8 - Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:52 AM EDT
                Goes

                Dennis P McCann

                If you live in Turkey, you would have known that Muslims, as the dominates of the land, as per their shariah have the right to tell any non Mulsim in his faith that he is an infidel, and call him to Islam.

                • 3 votes
                #13.9 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 8:58 AM EDT
                Goes

                samenslow

                I do not know too many places wher telling people to go to Hell gets a warm reception. But here people may believe the other si going o Hell,but would never personally say it because to do so would be impolite. Now, the clerics are a different matter. They tend to be Hellfire and brimstone. Copts are much quieter, but they have off shore radio stations too.

                I heard it myself with my own ears, that we are infidels, the bible is abrogated, and we should convert to Islam, and those were normal Muslim people who said so.

                In no way am I implying Copts are treated equally. They are not.

                Thank you for your true statement. And why do you think this is happening?!

                • 4 votes
                #13.10 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 9:02 AM EDT
                Dennis P McCann

                If you live in Turkey, you would have known that Muslims, as the dominates of the land, as per their shariah have the right to tell any non Mulsim in his faith that he is an infidel, and call him to Islam.

                80 million Muslims in a secular democracy. No shariah here.

                • 1 vote
                #13.11 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 9:04 AM EDT
                samenslow

                Muslims like Christians have an obligation to spread the faith and convert. I believe they are about the only religions that have this characteristic.

                Any Muslim who told you the Bible is bad is teaching against the faith. Muslims place great importance on Jesus and all prophets. However, what is taught as a religion often doesn't mesh with the religion itself. How many Christians have nice things to say about the Koran?

                Part of the current problems are caused my the "need" to convert on both sides and the use of religion as a political tool. But please keep in minds there are as many different types of Muslims as there are Christians. Islam is not monolithic. Listen to the wide variety of sermons given by Christian clerics. You will find the same in Islam. The radicals get the press.

                • 1 vote
                #13.12 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 9:30 AM EDT
                Goes

                samenslow

                Muslims like Christians have an obligation to spread the faith and convert. I believe they are about the only religions that have this characteristic.

                You are correct, but the difference is that Muslims are encourage to impose their faith even by force, and it is not the case in Christianity.

                Any Muslim who told you the Bible is bad is teaching against the faith. Muslims place great importance on Jesus and all prophets. However, what is taught as a religion often doesn't mesh with the religion itself. How many Christians have nice things to say about the Koran?

                All Muslims believe that the Torah, and the Bible were abrogated. All Muslims believe that Christ was no more than a prophet, and not the son of GOD, and this is forcing us not to accept or believe in Islam, and its prophet.

                All Christians must reject the Islamic faith

                "need" to convert on both sides

                Do you think that Christians are allowed to do that, they would endanger their lives if they did, correct?!

                the use of religion as a political tool.

                This doesn't apply on Christians.

                The radicals get the press.

                Are you trying to tell me that even Al Azhar clerics, are also radicals?! They are conveying the same message.

                • 2 votes
                #13.13 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 10:08 AM EDT
                Goes

                Dennis P McCann

                Didn't you say that the Alevi sect is persecuted, or at least oppressed, in Turkey?! Correct me if I am wring please.

                • 4 votes
                #13.14 - Mon Nov 1, 2010 10:23 AM EDT
                Reply
                Goes

                Bukhsry Volume 2, Book 23, Number 437:

                Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

                'Umar set out along with the Prophet (p.b.u.h) with a group of people to Ibn Saiyad till they saw him playing with the boys near the hillocks of Bani Mughala. Ibn Saiyad at that time was nearing his puberty and did not notice (us) until the Prophet stroked him with his hand and said to him, "Do you testify that I am Allah's Apostle?" Ibn Saiyad looked at him and said, "I testify that you are the Messenger of illiterates." Then Ibn Saiyad asked the Prophet (p.b.u.h), "Do you testify that I am Allah's Apostle?" The Prophet (p.b.u.h) refuted it and said, "I believe in Allah and His Apostles." Then he said (to Ibn Saiyad), "What do you think?" Ibn Saiyad answered, "True people and liars visit me." The Prophet said, "You have been confused as to this matter." Then the Prophet said to him, "I have kept something (in my mind) for you, (can you tell me that?)" Ibn Saiyad said, "It is Al-Dukh (the smoke)." (2) The Prophet said, "Let you be in ignominy. You cannot cross your limits." On that 'Umar, said, "O Allah's Apostle! Allow me to chop his head off." The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "If he is he (i.e. Dajjal), then you cannot over-power him, and if he is not, then there is no use of murdering him." (Ibn 'Umar added): Later on Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) once again went along with Ubai bin Ka'b to the date-palm trees (garden) where Ibn Saiyad was staying. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) wanted to hear something from Ibn Saiyad before Ibn Saiyad could see him, and the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saw him lying covered with a sheet and from where his murmurs were heard. Ibn Saiyad's mother saw Allah's Apostle while he was hiding himself behind the trunks of the date-palm trees. She addressed Ibn Saiyad, "O Saf ! (and this was the name of Ibn Saiyad) Here is Muhammad." And with that Ibn Saiyad got up. The Prophet said, "Had this woman left him (Had she not disturbed him), then Ibn Saiyad would have revealed the reality of his case.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#14 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:54 AM EST
                mork1from1ork

                Goes,

                interesting, but I seem to be missing the point of the story.

                WHO is Saf ibn Saiyad ? and exactly WHAT does he represent ,
                that his head was threatened?!

                and WHAT is "the reality of his case"?

                • 1 vote
                #14.1 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:07 PM EST
                Goes

                I don't know all the details about him, but what was interesting to me, is how worthless is a life of a person, in the eyes of Muhammad who was supposed to be sent as mercy to all mankind.

                But if you have any more information regarding this story, I will be happy if you share it here.

                • 1 vote
                #14.2 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:38 PM EST
                mork1from1ork

                Goes,

                Umar bin Al-Khatab
                `````````````````
                "Permit me to Strike his head"
                *
                *
                Mohammad
                ``````````
                ....(No), if he is the Same (Al Dajjal), Who would appear before the 'Last Hour',
                you would Not be able to overpower him,
                and if he is not,
                then there is no good for you to kill him.
                *
                *

                Mohmmad, to all the people that were there
                ````````````````````````````````````
                ....I warn you people of him....
                I warn you of him,
                and there is NO Prophet that has NOT warned his people against Al-Dajjal.
                Even Noah warned (against Him)
                But, I am going to tell you a thing
                which, *** Prophet has told his people***
                You Must KNOW that He (Al- Dajjal),
                IS ONE-EYED;

                While Allah, the Exalted and Glorious,
                Is NOT One-Eyed.

                *******
                WHAT??!!!!
                *******

                In any case, it seems that, 'Al-Dajjal', is the "False Messiah".
                I wonder WHO or What is considered the Al-Dajjal, in OUR time, by the Ummah of the Now Time.

                MORE depth might be interesting.

                • 2 votes
                #14.3 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:31 PM EST
                mork1from1ork

                oops.

                The Major part that mostly caused my, "WHAT", I must have mistakenly dropped; but, here it is;

                "But I am going to tell you a thing,
                which NO Prophet has told his people,
                You must know that He (Al-Dajjal)
                is One-Eyed;
                ****

                Mohammad is saying that NO OTHER Prophet, BUT, Only He, Mohammad,
                NONE has ever warned the people of this Al-Dajjal's ONE-EYE.
                ****

                What does that mean ?! Why the "One-Eye" Warning ?! Who or What does Al-Dajjal represent ?!
                What or Who, does the current Ummah think is Al-Dajjal ?! The Israel Nation ?! The West ?! Jesus Christ, the SON of GOD, as a "False" Messiah ?!

                • 2 votes
                #14.4 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:09 AM EST
                Goes

                mork1from1ork

                Thank you for the interesting information. Would be great if you can provide a link to the source!

                • 1 vote
                #14.5 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:40 AM EST
                Reply
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 3, Book 45, Number 687:

                Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

                Allah's Apostle said, "Who would kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle ?" Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, "I will kill him." So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, "I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of food grains." Ka'b said, "Mortgage your women to me." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "How can we mortgage our women, and you are the most handsome among the Arabs?" He said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." Muhammad said, "How can we mortgage our sons, as the people will abuse them for being mortgaged for one or two Wasqs of food grains? It is shameful for us. But we will mortgage our arms to you." So, Muhammad bin Maslama promised him that he would come to him next time. They (Muhammad bin Maslama and his companions came to him as promised and murdered him. Then they went to the Prophet and told him about it.

                How would a person harm Allah?! In fact Muhammad used Allah to eliminate his personal enemies.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#15 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:22 AM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:

                Narrated Ibn Aun:

                I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn 'Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn 'Umar was in that army.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#16 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:24 AM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 264:

                Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:

                Allah's Apostle sent a group of Ansari men to kill Abu-Rafi. One of them set out and entered their (i.e. the enemies) fort. That man said, "I hid myself in a stable for their animals. They closed the fort gate. Later they lost a donkey of theirs, so they went out in its search. I, too, went out along with them, pretending to look for it. They found the donkey and entered their fort. And I, too, entered along with them. They closed the gate of the fort at night, and kept its keys in a small window where I could see them. When those people slept, I took the keys and opened the gate of the fort and came upon Abu Rafi and said, 'O Abu Rafi. When he replied me, I proceeded towards the voice and hit him. He shouted and I came out to come back, pretending to be a helper. I said, 'O Abu Rafi, changing the tone of my voice. He asked me, 'What do you want; woe to your mother?' I asked him, 'What has happened to you?' He said, 'I don't know who came to me and hit me.' Then I drove my sword into his belly and pushed it forcibly till it touched the bone. Then I came out, filled with puzzlement and went towards a ladder of theirs in order to get down but I fell down and sprained my foot. I came to my companions and said, 'I will not leave till I hear the wailing of the women.' So, I did not leave till I heard the women bewailing Abu Rafi, the merchant pf Hijaz. Then I got up, feeling no ailment, (and we proceeded) till we came upon the Prophet and informed him."

                • 1 vote
                Reply#17 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:27 AM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 276:

                Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:

                The Prophet appointed 'Abdullah bin Jubair as the commander of the infantry men (archers) who were fifty on the day (of the battle) of Uhud. He instructed them, "Stick to your place, and don't leave it even if you see birds snatching us, till I send for you; and if you see that we have defeated the infidels and made them flee, even then you should not leave your place till I send for you." Then the infidels were defeated. By Allah, I saw the women fleeing lifting up their clothes revealing their leg-bangles and their legs. So, the companions of 'Abdullah bin Jubair said, "The booty! O people, the booty ! Your companions have become victorious, what are you waiting for now?" 'Abdullah bin Jubair said, "Have you forgotten what Allah's Apostle said to you?" They replied, "By Allah! We will go to the people (i.e. the enemy) and collect our share from the war booty." But when they went to them, they were forced to turn back defeated. At that time Allah's Apostle in their rear was calling them back. Only twelve men remained with the Prophet and the infidels martyred seventy men from us.

                On the day (of the battle) of Badr, the Prophet and his companions had caused the 'Pagans to lose 140 men, seventy of whom were captured and seventy were killed. Then Abu Sufyan asked thrice, "Is Muhammad present amongst these people?" The Prophet ordered his companions not to answer him. Then he asked thrice, "Is the son of Abu Quhafa present amongst these people?" He asked again thrice, "Is the son of Al-Khattab present amongst these people?" He then returned to his companions and said, "As for these (men), they have been killed." 'Umar could not control himself and said (to Abu Sufyan), "You told a lie, by Allah! O enemy of Allah! All those you have mentioned are alive, and the thing which will make you unhappy is still there." Abu Sufyan said, "Our victory today is a counterbalance to yours in the battle of Badr, and in war (the victory) is always undecided and is shared in turns by the belligerents, and you will find some of your (killed) men mutilated, but I did not urge my men to do so, yet I do not feel sorry for their deed" After that he started reciting cheerfully, "O Hubal, be high! (1) On that the Prophet said (to his companions), "Why don't you answer him back?" They said, "O Allah's Apostle What shall we say?" He said, "Say, Allah is Higher and more Sublime." (Then) Abu Sufyan said, "We have the (idol) Al Uzza, and you have no Uzza." The Prophet said (to his companions), "Why don't you answer him back?" They asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What shall we say?" He said, "Says Allah is our Helper and you have no helper."

                That is what it is all about power, and wealth.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#18 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:38 AM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:

                Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:

                When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah."

                • 1 vote
                Reply#19 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:39 AM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:

                Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

                The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

                • 1 vote
                Reply#20 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:

                Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz:

                Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."

                Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, 'Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.' He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-SawTq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walrma (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle ."

                • 2 votes
                Reply#21 - Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:47 PM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387:

                Narrated Anas bin Malik:

                Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

                • 2 votes
                Reply#22 - Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:48 PM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 3, Book 49, Number 862:

                Narrated Al-Bara bin 'Azib:

                When Allah's Apostle concluded a peace treaty with the people of Hudaibiya, Ali bin Abu Talib wrote the document and he mentioned in it, "Muhammad, Allah's Apostle ." The pagans said, "Don't write: 'Muhammad, Allah's Apostle', for if you were an apostle we would not fight with you." Allah's Apostle asked Ali to rub it out, but Ali said, "I will not be the person to rub it out." Allah's Apostle rubbed it out and made peace with them on the condition that the Prophet and his companions would enter Mecca and stay there for three days, and that they would enter with their weapons in cases.

                Isn't this strange, he gave up his prophet title, just to get the deal done, what a prophet!

                • 2 votes
                Reply#23 - Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:00 PM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

                Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

                Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

                • 2 votes
                Reply#24 - Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:09 PM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

                Narrated Abu Huraira:

                Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

                • 2 votes
                Reply#25 - Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:11 PM EST
                Goes

                Bukhary Volume 4, Book 52, Number 193:

                Narrated Anas:

                Whenever Allah's Apostle attacked some people, he would never attack them till it was dawn. If he heard the Adhan (i.e. call for prayer) he would delay the fight, and if he did not hear the Adhan, he would attack them immediately after dawn. We reached Khaibar at night.

                  Reply#26 - Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:14 PM EST
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