The only three stages of the Islamic nation

Aftre reading all your articles i have reached following conclusions;

great articles.

thank you.

Hey Salik, you should see my seeds. Mine prove that the Qur'an is NOT perfect. Soon I"ll also be posting my notes on the Qur'an (gonna take another month or two, school work + work work = little to no time to read fictitious books).

You're welcome :)

salik

So where is GOES wrong? You just criticized without content.

Excellent effort, Goes.

It is good to see that others understand the depth and motivations of Islam.

Islam is an aggressive quasi-religious political movement. The tenants promoted within Islam are not even realized by most Muslims. Especially considering that over 55% of Muslims are functionally illiterate and over 80% of Muslims have never read the Koran completely.

@ TIG

i was kind of busy lately couldnt get time to read GOES' hateful sense less stuff, anyways i am back :) and will sure provide you with contents soon.

...and will sure provide you with contents soon.

I'm looking forward to the abrogation Salik will be presenting to either justify or refute specific text and verses of the Koran. Not to mention the creative use of conditional and unconditional verses as they relate to the Hadith and\or Sunnah.

Oooh oooh, I know.

I know the answer.

'waving hand wildly'

Pick me.

Pick me!

PICK ME!!!

OOOOOOH!!

Well alright, there's always at least one who's done their homework.....:)

Why is it that looking at the facts is considered bigotry?

Because if the facts do not comport to your preconceived progressive notion, then it MUST be bigotry.

Why is it considered foolish to accept that people will follow the precepts of the religion they claim to follow?

Because you KNOW they only follow the precepts that work for them.

Okay, what do I win?

Which would, ironically, at least be prejudice, if not meeting the definition of bigotry.

Check mark on that one...:)

Well yes, but this was not multiple choice, so did you really hit all the finer points...? Oh course it is your thread, so you make the rules....:) (Whoops, I wrote this making an ass umption which was not warrented. New guy on the block?

I'd say it's a bit more convoluted than that.

On the one hand the suggestion is that they shouldn't have to assimilate, and yet on the other the assumption is made that they will.

On the one hand the suggestion is made that those requiring assimilation are being intolerant, and yet on the other hand is it not more arrogant to assume that they will, or want to?

On the one hand the suggestion is that "moderates" should not be held accountable for the actions of the "extremists"and that they might be too afraid to speak up, and yet on the other hand the assumption is made that if allowed to immigrate to the United States that the moderates will be fully capable of standing up to the extremists.

On the one hand, the suggestion is made that Americans should not bend to fear, prejudice, etc., and yet on the other hand the assumption is made that we shouldn't do anything to offend them, because the results might be violent.

On the one hand, the United States is at war with the extremists half way around the world, and yet the assumption is made that somehow the United States public is fully capable of standing up to these same extremists, while being tolerant, right here at home,

On the one hand the suggestion is made that they should be allowed to practice their religion freely, and yet on the other hand no allowance is made for the fact that we are not talking about differences in "practice", we are talking about differences in "governance".

Where is the compromise when one of the participants requires the entire society, not only themselves, to be governed by Sharia Law?

The most hilarious comments I see are the ones suggesting that various people will "stand up for the Constitution". I can only suggest I see no evidence of that happening anytime soon.

Do I really need to go on to show the complete hypocrisy and illogical thinking of those who suggest that it is all simply bigotry?

Ok, you win....:)

Do I really need to go on to show the complete hypocrisy and illogical thinking of those who suggest that it is all simply bigotry?

Yes, you do. Over and over and over...

I suggest you keep your post, and then just cut and paste. It'll delay the karpal tunnel.

:-)

And, unfortunately, I do...over and over and over.....:)

Those under Islamic rule are, ironically, in the House of Peace, virtually everyone else is in the House of War, whether they know it or not,

I'm not saying that every Muslim believes that the religion must be spread by sword and all people ruled by it, much like how not every Christian discriminates against gays or women or believes Christianity should be the basis of all laws. However, the Qur'an very clearly states that:

Tauba 111

Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the Garden of Paradise; they fight in His Cause, and slay and are slain; a promise binding on Him in Truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur-an. And who is more faithful to his Covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded; that is the achievement supreme.

Tauba 88

But the Apostle, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons; for them are all good things; and it is they who will prosper.

Tauba 61

Among them are men who molest the Prophet and say, "He is all ear." Say, "He listens to what is best for you; he believes in Allah, has faith in the Believers, and is a Mercy to those of you who believe, "But those who molest the Apostle will have a grievous penalty.

Tauba 44

Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting with their goods and persons. And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty.

Tauba 36

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve in a year – so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

Tauba 29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Tauba 14

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.

Tauba 20

Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sigh of Allah; they are the people who will achieve salvation.

Tauba 5

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Tauba 52

Say; "Can you expect for us any fate other than one of two glorious things – martyrdom or victory? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send His punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait expectant; we too will wait with you."

(Sorry about all the spelling errors, I'm currently going through my notes of the Qur'an to fix them and organize them, and also have not finished it yet.)

Goes

Agreed. There is no credibility here. I asked Salik to explain why he believed your article wrong and he did not even acknowledge my post. My request was genuine, I was interested in his viewpoint.

salik,

But like all religions, Islam is a system of ideas and practices. And it is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of the faith pose a special threat to civil society. Nor is it a sign of intolerance to notice when people are simply not being honest about what they and their co-religionists believe. Sam Harris

Please stop trying to label people when the truth is presented. If the truth hurts then do something to change it.

Christianity and Judaism (and any other religion based off of the Abrahamic religions) are all like this. The only religion I can ever endorse is Buddhism, because the teachings of Buddha are for peace, TRUE peace. Taking humanity and science together to reach a true enlightenment, with Nirvana being the soul's (power of the mind) goal.

@M-1095566

nice efforts just like your pal goes, coming up with cherry-picked verses *sigh* do me one little favor both you and your psyops' instrument pal goes, post another comment with backgrounds of these reveletions so that people here can understand the context.

P.S: I too can come up with biblical verses on voilence and bloodshed but islam teaches me to respect and dont crticise other religion.

@ TiG, Bluearcher, goes and M-109..

before jumping to conclusions(as you always do) do a little extra effort and read verse 1-5 surah tauba instead of CP* verse 5 only

*CP=cherry-picking (abbrevetion will be used later again so dont get confused)

do a little extra effort and read verse 1-5 surah tauba instead of CP* verse 5 only

let's do that,shall we.

I only used Pickthalas he is the most widely known English translation.

Let's start at the beginning of the linked tafsir of Inb Kathir, for a full explanation. It starts here

009.002

PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

009.003

PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

009.004
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

009.005

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.006

PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html

and here is the corresponding tasfir of Ibn Kathir, in it's proper context,he (not I) groups verses 2 through 6

This is the ayah of the sword

[فَسِيحُواْ فِى الاٌّرْضِ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ]

Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

[فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ]

(So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which

the four months in question passed, about 1400 years ago

We prohibited you from fighting the idolators,

Idolaters.... people not yet Muslim

and which is the grace period We gave them,then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

[فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ]

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

fight them everywhere on this earth, but Mecca

[وَلاَ تُقَـتِلُوهُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَـتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِن قَـتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ]

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191] Allah said here,

but if you must fight in Mecca, it's Ok

[وَخُذُوهُمْ]

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

[وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ]

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush),

do not wait until you find them.

DON'T SIT AT HOME... go out and look for them

Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them.

search them out,use all means at you disposal

This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

This seems rather unequivocal,and certain in it's intent.

As I am a Goddess worshiping Pagan (tuatha De' Danann,Child of the Goddess Danu), and am quite happy in my faith.This, the above verse, may generate great animosity from the remaining members of humanity, who choose freely to Disbelieve in the prophethood, of a murderous pedophile

I put forth the proposition, that this is in fact, a violation of my human rights, and a hate crime.

[فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلَوةَ وَءاتَوُاْ الزَّكَوةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

(But if they repent and perform the Salah,

if they convert to Islam

and give the Zakah,then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah.

These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations.

One more time, I state clearly.I do not wish to become a Muslim !!!!!

Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَشْهَدُوا أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ اللهِ وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاة»

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah,establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.)

I think this is pretty much self explanatory...is it not ?

This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said,

"It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.''

this ABROGATED all peaceful Qur'anic verses that came before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l2pJv_m1WA this video,is about Qur'anic abrogation

Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented:

"No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safetyever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

[وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اسْتَجَارَكَ فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّى يَسْمَعَ كَلاَمَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ أَبْلِغْهُ مَأْمَنَهُ ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَعْلَمُونَ ]

(6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.)

so that he may hear the Word of Allah and naturally, become a Muslim.

But what if he does not accept Islam ?

After all you have just read. Why would the CLEAR MESSAGE of the linked verse need to be repeated.

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20750

truth is often self evident.is it not ?

I didn't cherry pick the verses, I have read all of them. It says to fight them, to slay them, to be the master of them. Yes, in other places it says allah is most-merciful, all forgiving. ONLY, mind you, ONLY if they convert to Islam, or if a Muslim does a small crime, they repent. Abandoning mohammed was unforgivable, and so was abandoning islam. Don't try and make this out to be an attack on Islam, it's directly from the Qur'an.

As far as the biblical verses, that's the next book I'll be tackling and taking notes on. As a Buddhist, I don't care if you find something violent in the bible, because I don't follow that faulty work of fiction, OR the faulty work of fiction called the Qur'an.

By the way, Islam does not teach you to respect other religions, as is made most evident by the decrees in it against Pagans, and the iffy view on Jews and Christians.

salik

@ TiG, Bluearcher, goes and M-109..

before jumping to conclusions(as you always do) ...

What conclusion did I jump to? I asked you to simply explain yourself. You stated that Goes was wrong yet provided ZERO explanation for your criticism. Thus in #1.7 I posted ...

"So where is GOES wrong? You just criticized without content."

In response you posted in #1.9 ...

i was kind of busy lately couldnt get time to read GOES' hateful sense less stuff, anyways i am back :) and will sure provide you with contents soon.

Since you are (again) back posting on this article I assume you have found your time. However, you have yet to offer any insight as to where Goes has gone wrong. Originally I was interested in what you had to say. At this point I believe you are just blowing smoke.

Goes is correct by default.

ahh...nice work! so now woman worshipers are explaining Islam to public!! looks like goes beacon everywhere to come and join hands with him :)

let me summarize the whole thing and save you from jumping again into tafsir.com(its not authentic source try www.tanzil.info if you want to). You can never understand quran the way you are trying to understand so i will say leave it and spend your time more with danu and strengthen your own faith.

oh..just in case you are thinking that i dont have anything to say in response to kpr37's "findings" please read below where a brother has explained the whole surah tauba in detail

@M-10955, bluearcher, tig and goes everyone so curious about Surah Tauba, this one is for all of you

I would very briefly try to explain some of the important points that need to be considered while determining the nature of the directive entailed in the referred verses of the Qur’an . Please keep in mind that the referred verses are a part of Surah Al-Taubah, which in turn has its own particular placement in the Qur’an being preceded by Surah Al-An`aam, Al-A`raaf and Al-Anfaal. A thorough understanding of Surah Al-Taubah will obviously require an in-depth understanding of the preceding Surahs as well, as they serve as the premises on which the directives in Surah Al-Taubah are given. However, to avoid extra-ordinarily lengthy details, I shall, presently, restrict the scope of my analysis only to the evidences that are internal to Surah Al-Taubah. In case any question remains unanswered, we can then take up the analysis of the whole group of Surahs, beginning from Al-An`aam and ending at Al-Taubah.

The first point that needs to be considered is the opening of Surah Al-Taubah. The opening of the Surah may be translated as:

“A declaration of the dissolution of agreements from God and His messenger to the idolaters with whom you have made [no-war] agreements. Thus, you [O polytheists] may freely traverse in the land for four months, but know that you shall not escape God’s judgment and that God shall surely humble the unbelievers. A proclamation [should be made] to these people from God and His messenger on the day of Hajj-e-Akbar, [declaring] that God and His messenger are no longer under any obligation toward these polytheists. If you repent, [O polytheists,] it shall be better for you but if you turn your backs [paying no heed], then know that you shall not be able to escape God’s judgment. Give these rejecters the glad tidings of a painful punishment, except those polytheists who have not dishonored their treaties with you and have not aided anyone against you. With these, fulfill your treaties till the appointed term. Indeed, God loves the righteous. When the sacred months are over, slay the polytheists wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them.” (Al-Taubah 9: 1 – 5)

The Qur’an further says:

“How can there be any responsibility of these agreements on God and His messenger, except those with whom you made agreements at the Sacred Mosque? Thus, so long as they uphold their part of the treaty, you should uphold yours. Indeed God loves the righteous.” (Al-Taubah 9: 7)

A close look at the above verses shall suffice as evidence to the fact that the directive, “Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them” is given against those polytheists with whom the Muslims, under the leadership of the Prophet (pbuh), had entered into an agreement and who had disregarded this agreement and aided others against the Muslims. Obviously, these qualities cannot be generalized on all the polytheists of the world.

The Qur’an further says:

“Will you not fight against those who have broken their oaths and have conspired to banush the messenger? They were the first to attack you.” (Al-Taubah 9: 12)

Thus, a further qualification of those against whom the directive is given is that besides breaking their oaths with the Muslims, they conspired to banush the Prophet (pbuh) and were the first to attack the Muslims. It is obvious that the referred directive implies to take action against a particular people. It cannot be generalized to the whole world and to all times to come. The Qur’an further clarifies that the directive is mainly against those particular polytheists who were the custodians of the Haram – the Ka`bah. The Qur’an says:

“It is not becoming for these polytheists to manage the mosques of God – being themselves witnesses on their own rejection.” (Al-Taubah 9: 17)

An important point to remember here is that, according to the Qur’an , it is the special and specific position of the Rasu’l (messengers) of Allah, which renders the rejecters among his direct addressees “themselves witnesses on their own rejection”. The Qur’an tells us that the messengers of the Almighty, in contrast to Nabi’s (prophets), are not merely deliverers of God’s message. It tells us that a messenger of God is a sign of God’s final justice. When God sends his messenger among a people, these people are left with no excuse of rejection. The truth becomes as apparent for them as the shining sun. Consequently, if these people persist in their rejection, they are sentenced to one of the following two punishments depending upon their beliefs:

If they are polytheists (Mushrik), they are sentenced to death, as a punishment of their rejection. The Qur’an has presented the people of `aad, Thamud, Nooh, Lut, Musa etc. as examples of this category;
1. On the other hand, if these people are not polytheists, they are not sentenced to death, however they are forced to become subservient to the believers of the messenger. The Banu Israeel, after their rejection of Jesus (pbuh)[1] were subjected to this punishment.

Keeping this brief explanation of God’s law regarding the rejecters of His Rasu’l in perspective it should be clear that the phrase ‘being themselves witnesses on their own rejection’ implies a particular people against whom the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) are directed to take the action.

As has been mentioned above, the polytheists among the rejecters of a messenger of God are sentenced to death. The implementation of this sentence may take two forms, depending on the condition of the believers :

• If the believers are very few in number and if an Islamic state has not been created, then this punishment is directly implemented by the Almighty. This implementation normally takes the form of a natural calamity, like a flood, an earthquake, a windstorm etc. This has generally been the case with the rejecters of the messengers of Allah. They were punished by nature unleashed. The Qur’an , in Surah Al-Qamar, while addressing the polytheists of Arabia , at the beginning of the Prophet ‘s ministry, has referred to some of the more known among the rejecters of the previous messengers of God and has mentioned the consequences that they were subjected to face because of their rejection. At the end of the Surah, the Qur’an has asked the addressees of the Prophet (pbuh):

“[Why O polytheists of Arabia , would you not be punished in the same way?] Are your unbelievers better than these [previous rejecters of our messengers]? Or are you given immunity [from this punishment] in the Holy Scriptures? Do they say: We are a strong army [of men]? [Nay,] the army shall surely be routed and they shall flee turning their backs.” (Al-Qamar 54: 43 – 46)

Thus, the addressees of the Prophet (pbuh) were warned of the consequences of their rejection from the beginning of the Prophet’s ministry. They were informed that if they persist in their rejection, they shall face the same consequences as were faced by the rejecters of the previous messengers of God.

• If a significant number of people accept the messenger of God and the messenger also succeeds in forming an Islamic state, then this punishment is implemented through the believers . This serves two purposes. Firstly, the rejecters are punished and secondly, the believers are tested for their truthfulness and the genuineness of their faith.

Keeping this point in perspective, if we consider Al-Taubah 9: 14 – 16, we see that these verses direct the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) to fight the unbelievers and inform them of the reasons for this directive. Let us take a close look at these verses:

“Fight them. God shall punish them [for their rejection] through your hands. He shall humble them, grant you victory over them and shall thereby heal the spirit of the believers and remove all rancor from their hearts… [This fighting against your own kith and kin shall be a test for the truthfulness of your belief in God.] Did you think that you would be left alone [and not tested for the truthfulness of your faith], while God has not yet determined those among you who fight [in His way] and take none as close associates except God, His messenger and the believers? [Remember that] God is aware of all your actions.”

Seen in this perspective, it should be obvious that the directives entailed in these verses are specific to the direct addressees of the Qur’an . They can, by no means, be generalized for all human beings and for all times to come.

Finally, if we look at Al-Taubah 9: 39 – 40, we shall see that in these verses, God has warned the hypocrites and the weak among Muslims that if they do not help the Prophet (pbuh) and fight according to God’s directives, they shall face the dire consequences of turning their backs. These verses also declare that whether the Muslims help the Prophet (pbuh) or not, God shall Himself help him and shall grant him victory over the rejecters. The Qur’an says:

“If you do not go to war [against these rejecters], He will punish you severely and will replace you by another people [, who shall help him]. You will not harm him in any way for God [is his protector and He] has power over all things. [Thus,] if you do not help him, God [will Himself help him, as He] helped him when these rejecters drove him out, when he was only the second among the two. When they were in the cave, when he said to his companion: ‘Do not despair, indeed God is with us’. God caused His tranquility to descend upon him and strengthened him with warriors that were not visible to you and [thus] He routed the words of the rejecters and exalted the word of God. Indeed God is mighty and wise.”

The ultimate result of the fighting regarding which the believers were being directed to participate in was also declared in this Surah. The Qur’an declared:

“It is He, Who has sent His messenger with His guidance and the True Religion that He may exalt it above all other religions [of Arabia], however much these polytheists may detest it.” (Al-Taubah 9: 33)

In the light of the above explanation, it should be clear that the Surah and the directives entailed in it are specific not only in their address but also in their implication.

You are completely wrong. The verse 1-5 say that after the treaty is done, the allotted time is up, they are to "besiege, lie in wait, slay them". UNLESS they turn to Islam. The surahs imply that Islam is to be the religion of all, whether they like it or not. The believers of Islam are to either kill the Pagans, or force them to convert. The Jews and Christians may not necessarily be killed, but they sure as hell will be taxed for not being Muslim and made to be subservient. You've done nothing but pussyfoot around the surahs, contradicting yourself. SO, do the pagans get murdered by the Muslims? Or not? The first part you said only the ones that didn't keep their treaty (after the treaty's allotted time was up). THEN you went on to say, soon as an Islamic state is set up they're gonna get their a**** beaten by the Muslims, because if they don't they obviously don't believe in their God. The verses of the Qur'an are claimed to be all encompassing, perfect, and immune to the effects of time. To say that "it doesn't mean the same now as it did then" is a lie according to the Qur'an itself.

hmmm.. in the same way, i quoted from bible;

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"

for which i got a response that 'it was meant for that time'. *sigh* dont you know that quranic vereses are some times mentioned for a specific time as well!!

kabah built by abraham pbuh was to be cleared of 'idol worshippers' who actually placed 360 idols in kabaah....quran is commanding to clear the land from such people that doesnt imply that they dont have a right to live any where else as well!! whats wrong here...!! why israel trying to exterminate islam from it 'holy land'?? any one ever questioned that??

In response to your post #6.12. You've been asking me to use authentic books, and reliable sources all the time, and now you are giving us a tafsier made by a brother? Who is he, where is the source link that you got it from, is this person qualified to do tafsier more that Ibn Kathir for instance?

its not 'tafsir' its simply the background and the reason for revelation of Surah Tauba

above is your own Interpretation of Surah. Considering your general prejudical behaviour, how can any one possibly even think of it as correct or near correct??

i am not talking about the intro, i am talking about line by line interpretation you started after that long intro para....its you own work and totally un reliable!

Since apostasy is the worst crime within Islam and any form of critique of the Koran is apostasy...Muslims are in a Catch-22.

Clinging to childhood indoctrination and intellectual laziness under penalty of their own creed.

You are correct. Every Abrahamic religion and those that are based off of it are in the same boat.

It teaches off of the same prophets as the others, so yes it is.

Luke....and then you go right ahead and do it. lol

There are articles and seeds available which actually have as their subject the comparison of Christianity and Islam. This particular one is not one of those, and as you so rightly suggest, perhaps it would be better to stay on topic. Just a thought.

by a man, of a man, from a man. nomenclature in this case does nothing to defuse the point.

And my comment is on topic in that it begins to reveal your underlying myth that Islam is a lone perpetrator in these violent empirical ideologies.

1. Which of my underlying myths that Islam is the lone perpetrator......? Care to share?

2. Once again, you miss the point of Christianity, but than that's not unusual for many.

3. Even if true, if you have a problem with both, why defend the one?

Luke...didn't mean to butt in, but isn't there a certain irony in suggesting what you are doing often happens, and than doing it?

This may go on the wrong thread.

Perhaps you might point me in the direction of another thread where you defended Christianity by bringing up Islam, or alternatively "condemned" both?

@goes; u can keep calling it 'twisting the subject' but the fact is that when you talk about religion/faith you cant single out one and forget about others as if they dont exist or they are perfect and shouldn't be analysed at all, self-righteous bigotry isnt it!!?

salik

Yes, let's take it as a given that every religion has its 'issues'.

So what are you saying? Are you saying that Goes is right but that he should not limit his criticism to Islam and should have provided a complete analysis of all religions? Or are you saying that he is wrong?

If he is wrong, explain why. In my view most everyone reading these posts will see you complaining but offering nothing of substance in your complaint. Goes will be proved correct by your authoritative silence.

It is the way of much of "Islamic" Thought. It is unfortunate, but it is not unusual. It is a result of rejecting Greek thought.

@ TIG

looks like you are not reading anything other then goes research! scroll up, go to other articles written by same person and find my posts with genuine refrences....but you know what? i read every comment of yours and have a feeling that you cant take goes to be wrong in any case like he is 'implied' right!